# Game of Thrones 4.02 "The Lion and the Rose" 4/13/14 \[NO SPOILERS\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 13, 2014, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016 "2014-04-13T14:48:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Sam\_Lowry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sam\_Lowry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Lowry)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/141 "2014-04-14T17:55:25Z")
That was a good episode! I’m interested to see what comes next. I’m guessing the poisioning happening at the wedding is significant. It must have been by someone who either wouldn’t have as many chances to kill him otherwise, or wants the death to be as public as possible, or both. Tyrion doesn’t seem likely. He has every motive to kill Joffrey, but he’s fairly smart. If he was going to kill Joffrey, he’d do it in a way where he wouldn’t get immediately blamed and pointed out as the obvious suspect. Cersei has motive, in that she will be Queen Regent again, but she’s one of the very few people who loves Joffrey. Margery seemed less enthusiastic about the marriage than before, but she seems like an unlikely suspect. I could definitely see her murdering her husband, but only after producing an heir, not at the wedding reception. The Queen of Thorns seemed like she had the opportunity, but I don’t know why she would do it. I don’t remember all the details of the previous season, but she seemed okay with Margery marrying Joffrey. Joffrey’s death overshadows everything else, but I’m also interested to see what happens in the North. Ramsey is terrifying and psychotic, and I have no idea what he’ll do. And I’m curious to see what happens with Bran’s visions. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Barchetta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/da6949/32.png) [@Red\_Barchetta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Barchetta)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/142 "2014-04-14T18:02:21Z")
> [@BlackKnight](#): > > My reaction to that was basically identical to Podrick’s. I often defend the show against claims that there is a large amount of gratuitous nudity and violence. In most cases, I think the nudity and violence serve a real purpose on the show. But that - _that_ - was purely gratuitous. > > Not that I’m complaining, exactly. The girl had a nice terminus. But nothing was actually visible was it? ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/143 "2014-04-14T18:09:54Z")
> [@Red\_Barchetta](#): > > But nothing was actually visible was it? No. She had underwear on… it was just some Cirque de Solei shit. 🙂 It being specifically at the wedding could also be a public revenge for the Red Wedding. ---
**Author:** ![LawMonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@LawMonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LawMonkey)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/144 "2014-04-14T18:13:52Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > (Speaking of paramours and Tywin, some young lady let 67 year old Charles Dance knock her up last year; guess he won’t be retiring anytime soon.) Guess he doesn’t mind the rumpy-pumpy so much after all. 😉 > [@Push\_You\_Down](#): > > No. She had underwear on… it was just some Cirque de Solei shit. 🙂 It covered exactly what it had to, and not a centimeter more. :P~ ---
**Author:** ![Morbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morbo/32/389_2.png) [@Morbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morbo)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/145 "2014-04-14T18:16:24Z")
> [@tonyfop](#): > > In other news, my money is on Tywin/Oleanna plotted Joffrey’s death because he was too hard to control, and Margery can just marry Tommen when he comes of age. This was exactly my thinking after I let it digest. Regardless, I’m looking forward to seeing how Tyrion is getting out of this. ---
**Author:** ![LawMonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@LawMonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LawMonkey)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/146 "2014-04-14T18:18:46Z")
> [@Morbo](#): > > This was exactly my thinking after I let it digest. Regardless, I’m looking forward to seeing how Tyrion is getting out of this. Cersei will want his blood, of course, but Tywin will figure out some way to save him. Tyrion of the Night’s Watch, perhaps?😃 ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/147 "2014-04-14T18:39:47Z")
> [@Sam\_Lowry](#): > > Ramsey is terrifying and psychotic, and I have no idea what he’ll do. On that subject, the scene between him and Roose was pretty good. While Roose never even raised his voice, Ramsey seemed positively terrified of having maybe overstepped his bounds or made one questionable decision too many - presumably with good reasons. It doesn’t excuse his psycho side, not by a long shot, but whereas last season he seemed papa’s overenthusiastic monster and little besides, now maybe you can sort of see where he’s coming from, the forces that shaped him. Skirting the abyss and walking on eggs every day of your life is bound to make one a little cracked. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/148 "2014-04-14T18:40:43Z")
> [@LawMonkey](#): > > Cersei will want his blood, of course, but Tywin will figure out some way to save him. Tyrion of the Night’s Watch, perhaps?😃 Well, Jaime didn’t want to be exiled to Casterly Rock, the family estate, so perhaps that’s where Tyrion will go. I really feel sorry for him, as he’s generally done the right thing. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/149 "2014-04-14T18:54:16Z")
Not sure how many of you watched any of the promos for this season, but in the big 15-minute season preview, they spent a lot of time talking about Joffrey, seeming to focus on him as one of the main players this season. Clever bit of misdirection there… ---
**Author:** ![kath94](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/67e7ee/32.png) [@kath94](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kath94)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/150 "2014-04-14T18:57:50Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > During the episode, I was thinking that Joffrey reminded me of the boy from the short story, “It’s a Good Life.” I thought the very thing. “It’s a good thing you done, Joffrey. A REAL good thing.” > [@aurora\_maire](#): > > We rewatched the scene a few times and didn’t see anyone else eat pie except Joffrey. No one else would be allowed to anyway before the King got his. We also noticed that Margery and Lady Tyrell both sort of nodded at the wine goblet as Tyrion approached it as if to tell him to take that one. But I’m still thinking it’s the pie. There was no way to be sure Joffrey would drink from that goblet. > > But yay! The King is dead! The first thing I thought of was Poison Pigeon Poop. 😃 (pigeon poop, dove poop, same thing.) ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/151 "2014-04-14T19:01:41Z")
I was convinced that Joffrey was going to kill Tywin. I thought he was like a vicious dog that Tywin was sure would never have the nerve to bite him but now I wonder if it was the other way around. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/152 "2014-04-14T19:01:52Z")
Well I can honestly say I didn’t see that coming. Crikey. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/153 "2014-04-14T19:10:15Z")
Great episode. Loved the glimpse of a dragon’s shadow over King’s Landing. Bronn’s and Jaime’s sword practice, and the thinly-veiled but deep hostility of the wedding, were the other standouts for me. > [@BlackKnight](#): > > …Then, for dessert, King Cunt of House Cunt chokes and dies. And while he’s choking, entire throngs of people sit still and watch. I like to imagine there was a Maester in the audience thinking, “Oh! Those are symptoms of flurble-poisoning. I have the antidote right - actually, you know what? Fuck it.” Then he sits down and pours himself more wine… Heh. Of course, Cersei had just sent away the only maester we saw there - one more bit of support for the theory that she killed her previously-beloved-but-lately-uncontrollably-powermad-and-douchey eldest son. “Well, I guess I’m Queen Regent again!” > [@Mighty\_Girl](#): > > Was I the only one to giggle when the QoT told her son (her king) to get lost when she was chatting with Tywin? I did, too. I guess we know who’s really in charge of _that_ family. > [@Munch](#): > > My guess is that she’s going to be trained to be a witch. She referenced there being only two gods, one of light and one of dark - and specifically touched the girl’s scaly side when doing so. I’d guess that someone who has clear “half good” and “half bad” physical characteristics would be very important to a religion focusing on such things. I like this theory. Melissandre is perhaps just beginning her indoctrination of Stannis’s daughter. > [@Push\_You\_Down](#): > > I don’t know honestly. He still seems to hero worship Robert when he talks about him. (My father was leading a rebellion while you were hiding at Casterly Rock!) > He could just have a blind spot on the subject. I think so. If he believed, even deep down, the whispers that his mom and his uncle Jaime are his real parents, it would mean he was a bogus king, and his self-image would never stand for that. > [@Sam\_Lowry](#): > > …The Queen of Thorns seemed like she had the opportunity, but I don’t know why she would do it. I don’t remember all the details of the previous season, but she seemed okay with Margery marrying Joffrey… Remember that Sansa warned them both that Joffrey is a monster. She has a good reason for not wanting her dear granddaughter to remain married to the guy for a moment longer than necessary. ---
**Author:** ![LawMonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@LawMonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LawMonkey)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/154 "2014-04-14T19:12:00Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Well, Jaime didn’t want to be exiled to Casterly Rock, the family estate, so perhaps that’s where Tyrion will go. I really feel sorry for him, as he’s generally done the right thing. Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. FSR ISTR Tywin trying to ship Tyrion off to CR once before, when Tywin showed up and took over as hand. Am I nuts? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/155 "2014-04-14T19:27:42Z")
> [@tonyfop](#): > > In other news, my money is on Tywin/Oleanna plotted Joffrey’s death because he was too hard to control, and Margery can just marry Tommen when he comes of age. What’s the minimum legal marriage age in Westoros? I suspect that – especially for royals – there’s no real barrier for Margery to marry Tommen now. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/156 "2014-04-14T19:29:28Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > That’s what I thought too, but then it seemed like his hunter friend was his actual girlfriend, and I can’t imagine him letting his girlfriend go that far with Reek. But dog food kinda sorta reminded me of one of those prostitutes. I looked it up. Kaitness Everdeen was, in fact, Myranda, one of the nutbuster girls from last season. The girl on the receiving end was new. > [@BlackKnight](#): > > Then, for dessert, King Cunt of House Cunt chokes and dies. And while he’s choking, entire throngs of people sit still and watch. I like to imagine there was a Maester in the audience thinking, “Oh! Those are symptoms of flurble-poisoning. I have the antidote right - actually, you know what? Fuck it.” Then he sits down and pours himself more wine. . I imagined everyone staring silently, then standing and politely golf-clapping. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/157 "2014-04-14T19:30:12Z")
> [@LawMonkey](#): > > Cersei will want his blood, of course, but Tywin will figure out some way to save him. Tyrion of the Night’s Watch, perhaps?😃 Because look how well that deal worked for Ned Stark! Oh wait. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/158 "2014-04-14T19:32:20Z")
> [@LawMonkey](#): > > FSR ISTR You appear to have had a stroke whilst typing. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/159 "2014-04-14T19:39:37Z")
This episode really filled me with disgust…so much wine spilled. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016/160 "2014-04-14T20:51:54Z")
> [@tonyfop](#): > > I was not aware of that reference (being that this thread is for non GRRM book readers), and this theory does hold water. Sorry, I was unclear. “the book of the new sun” that includes the sword “Terminus est” was written by Gene Wolfe. I was assuming that GRR Martin, being presumably interested in other works of fantasy, could have made this reference. It seems even more likely with another proposed name mimicking Moorcock’s “Stormbringer”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-02-the-lion-and-the-rose-4-13-14-no-spoilers/686016.md?page=9)