# Game of Thrones 4.03 "Breaker of Chains" 4/20/14 \[No spoilers\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 21, 2014, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573 "2014-04-21T01:05:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/201 "2014-04-22T15:33:28Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > That might be what we are discussing HERE. But it’s not what a lot of articles I’ve read have been saying. They are literally stating, point blank, that the “incestuous rape scene” was too much. OK. I’ve only read one or two pieces about the scene, so I’m mostly going by what I am reading in this thread. Those kinds of comments seem way out of proportion to what’s being posted. I agree that it’s just plain bizarre to say that this scene is over some kind of line when we’ve seen all manner of war and torture and murder and assault over the last couple of seasons. If anyone is looking for more commentary, [you can read George Martin and Nickolaj Coster-Waldau’s thought here](http://www.avclub.com/article/george-rr-martin-nikolaj-coster-waldau-and-directo-203689?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=SocialMarketing&utm_campaign=Default:1:Default). ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/202 "2014-04-22T15:33:50Z")
Maybe. But Olenna makes an effort to discover of Joffrey is all that bad when she talks to Sansa. It doesn’t seem like it’s decided at that point that she’s going to have to kill Joffrey to protect/empower Margaery, assuming that’s the reason. I was going to say that Littlefinger wasn’t around to plan after that point, but I guess he was, wasn’t he? It was thousands of miles to the Eyrie if I understand the geography, which means he probably never sailed for there at all, but rather cruise around in his creepster rapevan of a ship killing time near the capital. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/203 "2014-04-22T15:35:26Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Well, Aidan Gillen is Irish, so maybe his is as much of a blend of his native accent and whatever he’s going for as Peter Dinklage’s native American accent and whatever he’s going for. > [@ctnguy](#): > > Baelish was fostered at Riverrun by House Tully, so I wouldn’t really expect him to sound any less posh than Catelyn or Edmure. I got the impression the Riverlands could be Ireland in the show, in the same way that Bravos seems to be Spain. The guy the Hound and Arya met seemed to have a touch of Irish to his accent, but I might have been imagining it. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/204 "2014-04-22T15:35:57Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > I think he’s trying too hard. He clips his t’s, and he can’t do the a -ah thing, like how Brits say “clahss” and “glahss” and “ahss”. > > Brits do American accents much better than vice versa. Speaking as a Brit, Tyrion’s accent doesn’t bother me in the slightest. Also, many Brits don’t do the “-ah thing”. I know I don’t. As far as England goes it typically is a sign of a southerner. Sean Bean, who played Ned Stark, is from Sheffield, which is towards the north, and as such would not do so. Littlefinger’s did sound weird to me, but only in this episode. It seemed a weirdly over-the-top version of the usual accent he uses. ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/205 "2014-04-22T15:37:31Z")
I still don’t get why people think Tywin hates Tyrion. He hates things about Tyrion but he also hates traits of the other kids. I think his plot to get Auberyn on the judge panel was gtreat manuevering. He only promised to get Auberyn together with the Mountain in “payment” for joining the panel not for finding his son guilty. This could be an elaborate plan to get Tyrion banished to the wall so he can take charge of the defense. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/206 "2014-04-22T15:39:41Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Every scene that’s ever involved Sam has been awful. I’ve rewatched the series a few times, and you can safely skip anything that involves him on the screen. Gilly is actually even more boring and any scene with the two of them seems like it belongs in another show because it’s so incredibly boring in comparison to everything else. Even Jon Snow manages to be compelling in comparison. Disagree here. I think Sam and Gilly have been great. Not the best storyline and characters, but far from the worst, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/207 "2014-04-22T15:41:08Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > This is a strawman. People are discussing what happened and asking about the writing, direction, and characterization. I haven’t seen anybody criticize the show for depicting (another) possible rape. I did see a couple of people wonder why they changed a consensual encounter to something that played more ambiguous, since they’ve done that at least once before. Well what do we have here, from way back on page 1 [QUOTE=Marley23] That’s still rape. It’s worse because of the way the scene plays out: she implores him to kill Tyrion, and he says no. She gets a little more affectionate with him after the chilly way she’s treated him since he came back to King’s Landing, and he seems to recognize that she’s being manipulative. So he says something like “You are a hateful woman. Why have the Gods made me love a hateful woman?” and drags her down to the floor. So it looked for all the world like he raped her because he was angry. If they wanted to show that she resisting him at first and then gave in or whatever at the end - which is still deeply gross - they failed. Maybe they can make it up to us next week by having Brienne beat the snot out of him for 10 or 15 minutes. Preferably using his own gold hand… [/QUOTE] Your own post states that the rape is gross and Jaime should get the snot beat out of him in the next episode, so you are making a judgement on the rape itself, and not a literary criticism as to why the producer/director decided to change the scene/character in this particular way. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/208 "2014-04-22T15:41:31Z")
> [@Push\_You\_Down](#): > > I still don’t get why people think Tywin hates Tyrion. He hates things about Tyrion but he also hates traits of the other kids. I think his plot to get Auberyn on the judge panel was gtreat manuevering. He only promised to get Auberyn together with the Mountain in “payment” for joining the panel not for finding his son guilty. This could be an elaborate plan to get Tyrion banished to the wall so he can take charge of the defense. Tywin doesn’t care about the wall. He would consider it a plus if the wall fell and the wildings poured over the north. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/209 "2014-04-22T15:43:27Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > Your own post states that the rape is gross and Jaime should get the snot beat out of him in the next episode, so you are making a judgement on the rape itself, and not a literary criticism as to why the producer/director decided to change the scene/character in this particular way. That was a comment about Jamie, a _character on the show_. I did not criticize the show for airing it. ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/210 "2014-04-22T15:48:32Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > But then with Sansa’s dissaperaance and the seemingly deliberate effort to leave a crushed stone/vial on the boat… I took that just as Littlefinger showing Sansa that the priceless family heirloom was simply glass or something else easily crushed (and not actual gems). ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/211 "2014-04-22T15:51:33Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > Well what do we have here, from way back on page 1 > > Your own post states that the rape is gross and Jaime should get the snot beat out of him in the next episode, so you are making a judgement on the rape itself, and not a literary criticism as to why the producer/director decided to change the scene/character in this particular way. The show has changed a ton of stuff from the books, that has nothing to do with whether the scene was good, bad, unnecessary or whatever. I know the rules about talking about the books, but can I talk about something that is different in the books that has already passed and will have no effect on the show? ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/212 "2014-04-22T15:54:29Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Tywin doesn’t care about the wall. The note the Maester sent was actually about the whitewalkers and the zombie army that Sam saw right? They didn’t know about the Wildlings until Jon Snow got back. If hes smart enough to be worried about the dragons… ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Lowry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sam\_Lowry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Lowry)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/213 "2014-04-22T15:55:00Z")
> [@Enterprise](#): > > What an odd discussion, this rape discussion. I’m not going to wade into the question whether “woman says no _therefore_ rape” is “true” even in real life, though I agree it’s certainly a necessary short hand compared to the alternatives (“but what did she REALLY want?”); but this scene…I don’t hear her shouting, I don’t see her hitting him, I don’t even see her scratching him even though she’s got her fingers on his cheek. If she’s fighting Jaime, I for one certainly would have thought her to be more violent in her defense of herself. It’s very hard to see if she’s even struggling given the rough handling that Jaime subjects her to (and doesn’t she even wrap her legs around him towards the end?). She says “Stop it!”, but it does seem to me it’s meant to complete to “Stop it, it’s not right”, which seems an odd way of commenting on your own rape. How about “You’re hurting me!” or something? > > So, I’m not on board with those who “clearly” see this as rape; and I agree that even if it were, and even if we were inclined to react to it less as a matter of character development and more as a matter of transcendental morals, what a weird thing to get hung up about in a show that’s just randomly murdered the peaceful inhabitants of an entire village. A whole new thread could probably be started about the rape scene. What bothers people is that many bring their own experiences from real life to it. In real life, people don’t all act the same way to being attacked or raped. Some people fight back as hard as they can, some people freeze up and aren’t able to fight back, some think that they should just give in and let it happen and get it over with sooner. Some people yell and scream in order to get help or to try to get the attacker away, some don’t yell because the shame of being found in that position would be worse to them than the original rape. Then often in real life when someone tells others “that person raped me” the others might say it wasn’t really rape because the victim didn’t fight back, or didn’t fight back hard enough, or because the victim gave in, or wasn’t seriously injured, or wasn’t seriously traumatized, or any number of other things. I’m not saying that anyone here specifically would be like that to a rape victim in real life. But I think that’s part of what’s causing the serious reaction about the scene. It’s that people hear the director saying that it was consensual by the end, or reading people say that Cersei wasn’t fighting back hard or screaming, and they remember people excusing real life rapes with very similar excuses. > [@Polerius](#): > > +100 > People are being killed, a kid has his parents eaten in front of him, but oh no, there was a rape, how _could_ they? This is also real life encroaching on how people react. If someone in real life was the lone survivor of a town, and he saw his family get murdered and was told they were going to get eaten, he would get unending sympathy. No one would question if it was deserved or not. Everyone can agree it’s a horrible event. But many people have been raped and get no sympathy, or are accused of bringing it on themselves, or lying about it, or otherwise made to feel worse. Also, it’s easier for most viewers to put themselves in Cersei’s situation. It’s unlikely that my whole family will be murdered while I watch, even less likely that my town or neighborhood will all be murdered in front of my eyes. But it’s entirely possible that I could be raped by someone that I had previously trusted and loved. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/214 "2014-04-22T15:55:30Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > The show has changed a ton of stuff from the books, that has nothing to do with whether the scene was good, bad, unnecessary or whatever. I know the rules about talking about the books, but can I talk about something that is different in the books that has already passed and will have no effect on the show? The rule for these threads is that the books do not exist. No comparison, no mention, nothing. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/215 "2014-04-22T15:58:42Z")
You can’t mention the books at all, the books do not exist. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/216 "2014-04-22T15:59:18Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > So something that hasn’t been discussed - there’s an active effort to frame Tyrion, trying to get Pod to lie against him. Framing Tyrion seemed like an unfortuante coincidence - after all, there’s no way to know for sure that Joffrey would’ve specifically humiliated Tyrion with the cup that held the poison. But then with Sansa’s dissaperaance and the seemingly deliberate effort to leave a crushed stone/vial on the boat, the effort to frame Tyrion and Sansa together seems deliberate. I doubt Olenna is happy about framing Tyrion, so I wonder if the guys trying to buy off Pod are directly reporting to Littlefinger. Or could they even be hired by Tywin, who’s using the opportunity to get rid of Tyrion? > > I wonder when Littlefinger had time to plot the assassination with Olenna - I’m assuming that’s what actually happened. What’s Littlefinger’s ultimate plan here? Simply “Chaos is a ladder”? Was Olenna the primary driver, or Littlefinger? I’ve been wondering if Tywin had Joffrey killed. Who would have the balls to do such a thing? Who else could safely enlist Littlefinger’s help in assassinating the king without fear of betrayal? And he stood to gain a lot. He obviously wants a Lannister on the throne, but he wants one sensible enough to continue his legacy. Joffrey was an utter failure in that respect, and even Tywin could hardly control him. Now he’s had a chance to hit the reset button with a considerably less psychopathic kid. He can manipulate the hell out of Tommen and raise him to be a good king (in the Tywin Lannister sense). Then we saw the scene where Tywin was already getting started with the manipulation, which would seem to back my theory, except that Tywin is pragmatic enough to make deadgrandchildrenade anyway. What I’m not sure about is who the timing benefited more. Joffrey and Margaery had married, but not consummated their marriage. I’m not sure what the rules are there, and whether that’s good or bad for the Lannisters and Tyrrels. I can’t see Olenna using Littlefinger in a plot to assassinate the king. She couldn’t trust him to not run straight to Tywin or Joffrey, and probably despises him anyway. > [@DigitalC](#): > > Tywin doesn’t care about the wall. He would consider it a plus if the wall fell and the wildings poured over the north. I doubt it. It would be quite a pain in the arse, and probably quite expensive. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/217 "2014-04-22T16:00:45Z")
I have to assume that the Sam and Gilly storyline will pay off in someway. Just because I can’t imagine them spending so much time on it and it go nowhere. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/218 "2014-04-22T16:07:58Z")
There can’t be a payoff that would justify the time spent on Sam and Gilly. Even if that baby turns out to be the greatest rock star in Westeros, they could’ve conveyed the basic story (dumb people barely survive adversity, bumble at each other and others, faces flap outputting boring) could be conveyed in about 1/4th the screen time. Think about how compressed the show is - how much characterization and plot movement happens in an hour. Think about all of the amazing scenes that we get every episode - even if they’re as relatively mundane as Tywin starting to manipulate his grandson - and then think how much of that precious screen time that could otherwise produce TV gold is telling this incredibly boring story about completely uninteresting people. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/219 "2014-04-22T16:08:32Z")
> [@Bob Ducca](#): > > I took that just as Littlefinger showing Sansa that the priceless family heirloom was simply glass or something else easily crushed (and not actual gems). That’s how I interpreted it, too - “Remember how I told you that everyone in King’s Landing is a big, fat liar?” I’m not sure what LittleFinger’s game is with Sansa, but it might be as simple as, he’s still carrying a torch for Catelyn, and since he can’t have her, he’ll take her daughter instead. Sansa being on LittleFinger’s ship is far more creepy than Jaime and Cersei, frankly. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/220 "2014-04-22T16:11:44Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > There can’t be a payoff that would justify the time spent on Sam and Gilly. Even if that baby turns out to be the greatest rock star in Westeros, they could’ve conveyed the basic story (dumb people barely survive adversity, bumble at each other and others, faces flap outputting boring) could be conveyed in about 1/4th the screen time. > > Think about how compressed the show is - how much characterization and plot movement happens in an hour. Think about all of the amazing scenes that we get every episode - even if they’re as relatively mundane as Tywin starting to manipulate his grandson - and then think how much of that precious screen time that could otherwise produce TV gold is telling this incredibly boring story about completely uninteresting people. Speaking of boring people…thank all 7 Gods that we didn’t spend any more time with Brann and The Kid from Love Actually. Yeah, we get it – he’s psychic. He will undoubtedly have a very large part to play some season. But jeezus h christ we’ve been watching him wander for 3 years now. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573.md?page=12)