# Game of Thrones 4.03 "Breaker of Chains" 4/20/14 \[No spoilers\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 21, 2014, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573 "2014-04-21T01:05:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/261 "2014-04-23T00:02:41Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > Every scene those two are in drags so much. I can’t fathom how the director doesn’t see that. Is like a 10 minute back and forth between the two about how she’s going to be gang raped by the other members of the watch, really necessary? This could have been a 10 second exchange followed by a smaller scene where he drops her off at the Inn, maybe just the short exchange between sir tubby and the innkeeper. Well, I did enjoy the brief glimpse of them making lambskin (intestine) condoms in that brothel scene. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@Charlie\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/262 "2014-04-23T00:20:29Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Maybe. But Olenna makes an effort to discover of Joffrey is all that bad when she talks to Sansa. It doesn’t seem like it’s decided at that point that she’s going to have to kill Joffrey to protect/empower Margaery, assuming that’s the reason. > > I was going to say that Littlefinger wasn’t around to plan after that point, but I guess he was, wasn’t he? It was thousands of miles to the Eyrie if I understand the geography, which means he probably never sailed for there at all, but rather cruise around in his creepster rapevan of a ship killing time near the capital. I don’t think I’ve seen this point raised before. But wouldn’t it have been a hundred times better for them to have killed Joffrey a day after the wedding so that Margaery could have remained Queen? Also, the Tyrell family would have then had some control over the future of the ruling family of Westeros. The people involved in the assassination are supposedly experts in the Game of Thrones. So, what am I missing? How does it make any sense at all to kill him before the marriage is consummated? Is there any reason at all to do it that way? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/263 "2014-04-23T00:30:32Z")
I’m guessing it’s a lot easier to re-marry her to Tommen if she’s still ostensibly a virgin and not a widow. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/264 "2014-04-23T00:32:06Z")
> [@Charlie\_Wayne](#): > > I don’t think I’ve seen this point raised before. But wouldn’t it have been a hundred times better for them to have killed Joffrey a day after the wedding so that Margaery could have remained Queen? Also, the Tyrell family would have then had some control over the future of the ruling family of Westeros. > > The people involved in the assassination are supposedly experts in the Game of Thrones. So, what am I missing? How does it make any sense at all to kill him before the marriage is consummated? Is there any reason at all to do it that way? The only way for Margaery to remain in power would be to marry the next king, and she probably has a better chance at that if the marriage had not been consummated. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/265 "2014-04-23T00:42:44Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > So not only did Cersei lose her pwecious Kinglet, she’s just had another torn from her by her own dad. And Myrcella’s still in Dorne, right ? > She wasn’t the most stable of people before, but between that and the rape and I think she might just crack completely in the coming weeks. Maybe she can form a support group with Lysa Arryn and Stannis’ wife ? 🙂 It’s clear that neither Cersei nor Jaime consider it rape despite the terrible job by the director, who staged the rapiest non-rape scene in history. EDIT: I say “it’s clear” in the sense that the people actually involved with the show – the director and the actors – have stated it wasn’t rape in after-show discussion much like this thread. > [@Bob Ducca](#): > > I’m not sure HBO is in the habit of posting rape warnings on their shows. They may warn of nudity or graphic violence, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen one for rape. They do for movies, so I see no reason they wouldn’t do the same for shows. I think I remember a rape warning for a Deadwood episode, possibly involving Jane? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/266 "2014-04-23T00:52:53Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > It’s clear that neither Cersei nor Jaime consider it rape despite the terrible job by the director, who staged the rapiest non-rape scene in history. > > EDIT: I say “it’s clear” in the sense that the people actually involved with the show – the director and the actors – have stated it wasn’t rape in after-show discussion much like this thread. Regardless of the rape-nature of the scene, there’s still the whole “we just fucked almost on top of Joffrey’s barely cold body” aspect. Which some might say is not entirely unshocking to a mother’s psyche :). Does a dog have rape-nature ? Mu. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/267 "2014-04-23T01:59:18Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Spell it out for me. If I said “that guy deserved to be tortured” would that be a “there it is” moment for you? When people were happy Joffry was painfully murdered was that a “there it is” moment? Watching a show and rooting for the villains to get killed is a hell of a lot less creepy than rooting for them to be raped. I’m not sure I can entirely explain _why_ that is. Part of it is the fact that murder by poison (or for that matter, by broadsword) is very rare, whereas every one of us probably knows multiple rape victims (whether we realize it or not). But beyond that, the bad guy dying is part of even many children’s stories – it’s something I expect people to treat as a convention of fiction. Rape isn’t like that. If someone is cheering rape on screen, it makes me wonder what their attitude towards it is in real life. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/268 "2014-04-23T02:12:18Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > …Why does Tywin want the Red freaking Viper as a judge for Tyrion’s trial? If there’s one Lord in King’s Landing that Tywin doesn’t control, Oberyn would be the one… Which is exactly why he chose him. It’d send a _huge_ message if Oberyn sided with the other judges. And speaking of Oberyn I loved the sex scene with him and Olyver (& Ellaria and the nameless whores). 😃 > [@F.Pu-du-he-pa-as](#): > > Is anyone else looking forward to the inevitable spin-off series _CSI: Westeros_? I’m imagining Grand Maester Pycelle typing away at some gigantic medieval version of a keyboard while a squadron of mice drag a pointer around a two-dimensional pulley-based screen and serving girls run around in lab coats. I’d pay to see that. > [@Sampiro](#): > > …The stones with the painted eyes on Joff’s face recalled Jon Arryn in the first episode and were freaky as hell. (Jack Gleeson said he kept falling asleep in his scenes since he couldn’t see or move.)…New Daario’s David v. Goliath was a scene that didn’t work for me, or Daeny’s speech (which if I were a Mereen nobleman I’d have ordered horns blown during). Anyone else? Was anyone else thinking “gee the Silent Sisters sure are good at cosmetics” during that scene? Joffrey’s body looked better most modern corpses a open casket funerals. Re Daeny’s speech; that wouldn’t have been as dramatic. Plus I think that, despite everything they’ve heard about her, the Mereen authorities have had a very hard wrapping their heads around the concept that she was ignoring them and speaking to their slaves. > [@DigitalC](#): > > If she was she’d get rid of it, she’s not that stupid. Bingo. > [@Vashbul](#): > > Just remembered this. A farmer tells his son, “nobody can boil a potato like your mum”. He is immediately killed. > > This happened because there were no potatoes in Europe, or anywhere outside of the Andes, until the Spanish brought them over in the latter part of the fifteenth century. So he absolutely deserved it. Westeros isn’t Europe there’s no reason they couldn’t have access to New World crops. Hell there’s no reason to think this planet even an equivalent of a New World (ie a continent that’s unknown to both Westeros & Essos). > [@Bozuit](#): > > I got the impression the Riverlands could be Ireland in the show, in the same way that Bravos seems to be Spain. The guy the Hound and Arya met seemed to have a touch of Irish to his accent, but I might have been imagining it. Dorne is supposed to like Spain (well a Latin Wales that’s mostly desert). I think Braavos is supposed to be more like a Northern European city-state in the Hanseatic League. > [@voltaire](#): > > Well, I did enjoy the brief glimpse of them making lambskin (intestine) condoms in that brothel scene. _That’s_ what that was; I thought they were making sausage. > [@SenorBeef](#): > > I’m guessing it’s a lot easier to re-marry her to Tommen if she’s still ostensibly a virgin and not a widow. It hasn’t really been made clear on what the mainstream rules on incest are in Westeros. Brother/sister incest is clearly condemned as a Targaryen perversion; maybe by extension that applies to in-laws? That was the case in Medieval Europe. The validity of Henry VIII’s marriage to Catherine of Aragon hinged on whether or not she consummated her marriage to his brother Arthur. > [@DigitalC](#): > > The only way for Margaery to remain in power would be to marry the next king, and she probably has a better chance at that if the marriage had not been consummated. Agreed. If waiting until Margaery had safely produced (an ideally male) heir is too much of a risk it’s better if she doesn’t consummate the marriage at all. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@Charlie\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/269 "2014-04-23T02:36:01Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > I’m guessing it’s a lot easier to re-marry her to Tommen if she’s still ostensibly a virgin and not a widow. But why would she need to marry Tommen? Wouldn’t she be the Queen if the marriage had been consummated? If a King and Queen are in power for a long, long time and then the King dies, do you mean to say that in Westeros the Queen is thrown out of power unless she finds some new man to marry and he becomes the King? Seems like some very strange rules of succession to me. ---
**Author:** ![LawMonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@LawMonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LawMonkey)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/270 "2014-04-23T02:41:25Z")
> [@Charlie\_Wayne](#): > > If a King and Queen are in power for a long, long time and then the King dies, do you mean to say that in Westeros the Queen is thrown out of power unless she finds some new man to marry and he becomes the King? > > Seems like some very strange rules of succession to me. My impression is that the power is attached to the King; Queen as an office has very little, if any, formal power. It’s just the King’s wife, basically. So yeah, if the King dies, his son takes the throne; presumably mom can stick around as the Queen Mum, more or less, but she’s not The Queen any more. If the King dies without a male heir, well, time to start looking for a new place to live, lady-who-used-to-be-Queen. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/271 "2014-04-23T02:46:34Z")
> [@Charlie\_Wayne](#): > > But why would she need to marry Tommen? > > Wouldn’t she be the Queen if the marriage had been consummated? > > If a King and Queen are in power for a long, long time and then the King dies, do you mean to say that in Westeros the Queen is thrown out of power unless she finds some new man to marry and he becomes the King? > > Seems like some very strange rules of succession to me. When Robert Baratheon died, his son Joffry became king. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/272 "2014-04-23T02:48:41Z")
You’re confusing a queen-_regnant_ (monarch in her own right) and a queen-\*consort \*(monarch’s wife). Margaery would’ve been the latter, and her only power she’d have would be her influence over her husband. She’s still be “Queen Margaery” if Joffrey died after the wedding night, but she’d just be a queen-\*dowager \*(monarch’s widow). Cersei is also a queen-dowager, specifically a queen-\*mother \*(monarch’s widow & mother of the current monarch). And because her son is underage she get’s to be queen-\*regent \*(monarch’s widow serving as regent for underage monarch) and rule in his name until he’s of age like she technically did with Joffrey. Except of course she doesn’t really get to rule anything because her father’s bankrolling the government & army so he’s the one actually running things, and Cersei’s just for show. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/273 "2014-04-23T02:49:39Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > When Robert Baratheon died, his son Joffry became king. And the only reason Cersei retained any power was because Joffrey was young. Margaery would have zero power as Joffrey’s widow. Tomnen is the king, Cersei the queen regent, Margaery the former queen. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@Charlie\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/274 "2014-04-23T03:00:44Z")
> [@LawMonkey](#): > > My impression is that the power is attached to the King; Queen as an office has very little, if any, formal power. It’s just the King’s wife, basically. So yeah, if the King dies, his son takes the throne; presumably mom can stick around as the Queen Mum, more or less, but she’s not The Queen any more. If the King dies without a male heir, well, time to start looking for a new place to live, lady-who-used-to-be-Queen. I see. Thank you very much. And thanks to Fear Itself and alphaboi867 as well. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Burden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/958977/32.png) [@Jack\_Burden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Burden)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/275 "2014-04-23T03:06:22Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Regardless of the rape-nature of the scene, there’s still the whole “we just fucked almost on top of Joffrey’s barely cold body” aspect. Which some might say is not entirely unshocking to a mother’s psyche :). > > Does a dog have rape-nature ? Mu. I suppose once you break through the incest barrier, most other sexual taboos seem less significant. Seriously, that scene was just wrong on so many levels. ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/276 "2014-04-23T03:06:28Z")
> [@Charlie\_Wayne](#): > > But why would she need to marry Tommen? > > Wouldn’t she be the Queen if the marriage had been consummated? > > If a King and Queen are in power for a long, long time and then the King dies, do you mean to say that in Westeros the Queen is thrown out of power unless she finds some new man to marry and he becomes the King? > > Seems like some very strange rules of succession to me. Those are the same rules of succession used quite commonly here on Earth. When George VI of Great Britain died, his wife Elizabeth, Queen consort of the United Kingdom and the British Dominions, didn’t inherit his throne; it went to their daughter. The daughter became Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God, of Great Britain, Ireland and the British Dominions beyond the Seas, Queen, Defender of the Faith…while her mother became known as Queen Elizabeth, the Queen Mother. But the Queen Mother was never at any point the reigning monarch; that title is passed by blood (or conquest) not marriage. For the same reason, when Elizabeth II dies, the throne will not pass to Prince Philip, even though they have been married for 66 years. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/277 "2014-04-23T03:36:56Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > I’m guessing it’s a lot easier to re-marry her to Tommen if she’s still ostensibly a virgin and not a widow. Yeah, that’s what I thought, too. It can’t have escaped anyone’s notice that her two previous engagements ended in the death of the man (Renly, fiancee, and Joffrey, husband), though. ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_Prize](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@Sir\_Prize](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_Prize)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/278 "2014-04-23T03:49:27Z")
Now that Jamie has had a chance to release some tension, I wonder if it will occur to him the guy who cut off his hand is now in his fathers chain of command. If Brienne somehow learns that the hand chopper is hunting Stark children, she may guilt Jamie into going after him to fulfill his vow to Mrs Stark. I was disappointed that Tywin mentioned the threat of the currently unmarried Daenerys and the need to find Tommen a wife without mentioning the obvious solution. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/279 "2014-04-23T04:15:11Z")
> [@Sir\_Prize](#): > > I was disappointed that Tywin mentioned the threat of the currently unmarried Daenerys and the need to find Tommen a wife without mentioning the obvious solution. Tywin wants a monarch he can control. I don’t think marrying Tommen to Daenerys would give him that (even if Dany would go along with it). ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/280 "2014-04-23T04:21:24Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > Tywin wants a monarch he can control. I don’t think marrying Tommen to Daenerys would give him that (even if Dany would go along with it). Agreed. Even if Dany agreed to marry anyone and betray the memory of her Moon and Stars (which she probably won’t), even if Dany wasn’t stubborn and headstrong as a gorram mule (which she is), and even if she didn’t have WMDs that cannot be controlled by anybody else (which she does), I don’t think the half of Westeros that bled, burned and died to \*finally \*put down the crazy-ass Targaeryens would be ecstatic about putting one back on the throne not even a generation later. As for the other half, as well as the traditionalist peasants, they’d basically go “Righteous ! So, we’re all agreed that she’s The Queen while the Lannister is just the king, innit ?”. Cue civil war part deux. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573.md?page=15)