# Game of Thrones 4.03 "Breaker of Chains" 4/20/14 \[No spoilers\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 21, 2014, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573 "2014-04-21T01:05:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/281 "2014-04-23T04:33:41Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > They do for movies, so I see no reason they wouldn’t do the same for shows. I think I remember a rape warning for a Deadwood episode, possibly involving Jane? Deadwood had every other kind of violence imaginable, but no rape. Hearst sorta threatened Alma, Jane thought Swearengen was going to rape her when he went to check on little Sophia at Doc’s place, Wolcott killed some of Joanie’s prostitutes, but all the sex in Deadwood was consensual or paid for. I’m remembering a rape warning for a TV show too, but I don’t remember what show. Might have been a movie. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/282 "2014-04-23T05:01:25Z")
> [@Sir\_Prize](#): > > I was disappointed that Tywin mentioned the threat of the currently unmarried Daenerys and the need to find Tommen a wife without mentioning the obvious solution. As others have said, this is overwhelmingly unlikely to be a possible solution. Daenerys is the last known surviving member of a family who legendarily conquered Westeros with three dragons 300 years ago and now she’s going from city to city in Essos, three dragons in tow, freeing all the slaves and putting all the slavers to the sword. King Robert Baratheon, Tommen’s father (and for all reasons that matter that’s what he was, regardless of who is the actual biological father), tried to have her assassinated (remember the wine-seller?). Tywin’s son, the kingslayer? The king he slayed was her father. Those babies Oberyn is angry about Tywin’s man having killed? They were her nephews/nieces. Tywin is going to want Tommen to marry a woman he thinks can be controlled. Daenerys wants to rule and to set to rights all the injustices she sees in the world. The chances of Tommen and Daenerys marrying are remote. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/283 "2014-04-23T05:08:55Z")
Not to mention the Tyrells would probably be pretty pissed. 😛 Tywin owes them big for all their financial and military support and Margaery getting a queen’s crown seemed like it was partial recompense. The last time a guy stole a queen spot from another family his entire house wound up dead. ---
**Author:** ![LawMonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@LawMonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LawMonkey)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/284 "2014-04-23T05:16:44Z")
> [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > The daughter became Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God, of Great Britain, Ireland and the British Dominions beyond the Seas, Queen, Defender of the Faith… But sadly, no longer Empress of India. Not that I want India to again be under the British heel; I just enjoy grandiose titles, and it doesn’t get much better than that. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/285 "2014-04-23T05:25:43Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > Deadwood had every other kind of violence imaginable, but no rape. Hearst sorta threatened Alma, Jane thought Swearengen was going to rape her when he went to check on little Sophia at Doc’s place, Wolcott killed some of Joanie’s prostitutes, but all the sex in Deadwood was consensual or paid for. > > I’m remembering a rape warning for a TV show too, but I don’t remember what show. Might have been a movie. Are you forgetting drunken Steve and the horse, or do equines being masturbated upon not count? 😛 (Though, I still think making it be _just_ masturbation was a bit of a cop-out by the writer/director, otherwise Hostetler’s almost executing him for the offense seems a bit much.) But more seriously, even some of the “paid for” sex probably crossed the line into rape territory with the way I vaguely remember prostitutes were sometimes treated in that show. Aww crap… all this talk about rape in this thread has been annoying me enough to just scroll past it all, and now one Deadwood reference and I’m a hypocrite! :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/286 "2014-04-23T06:48:55Z")
Did the Hound violate guest right by attacking his host, or does it only prevent the host from attacking the guest? Seems like he even made a comment about how it was worthless after the Red Wedding… ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/287 "2014-04-23T06:58:34Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > Watching a show and rooting for the villains to get killed is a hell of a lot less creepy than rooting for them to be raped. > > I’m not sure I can entirely explain _why_ that is. Wanting someone to die isn’t necessarily vindictive and cruel. Joffrey’s death is going to ultimately prevent a great amount of suffering that he would’ve done in the future - any good person could easily support that cause. On the other hand, wanting people to not just be removed from the picture but to suffer greatly - that can obviously be cruel and vindictive. Rape is more or less one form of torture (the motives can be different, but the effects are in the same category), so it is odd to me to think that it’s okay to want someone to be tortured, but wanting someone to be raped is beyond the pale. For instance, there’ve been people that take joy in the torture that Theon’s getting, which is, even if you take the most negative/damaging interpretation of the Cersei scene, is far worse than that. (And go ahead and challenge me on this one, rape-is-the-worst-conceivable-thing people). And I think that’s pretty sick. No one deserves what Theon is having done to him, and it would be far more merciful to merely kill him. Yet if people can root for that, it would be totally hypocritical for them to think that no one could root for a rape against a hated character. I don’t know if there’s any overlap between the “yay theon” and “rooting for rape is unthinkable” groups though. Incidentally, I’ve always found Theon to be tragic rather than a horrible bad guy, but others seem to relish in his suffering. The dude was caught in a shitty place - loyalty to his identity and his biological family vs the adopted family that had raised him and treated him well. So much of his life was trying to keep his identity as Last Living Son of Baylon Greyjoy, Prince of the Iron Islands that he was put into an incredibly shitty situation, and genuinely regrets his choices. By the standards of that world it barely makes him a bad guy. And yet he’s getting, by far, the worst punishment and some people approve of that. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/288 "2014-04-23T08:51:25Z")
Yeah, if anyone cheered Theon’s “dismemberment”, that’s pretty messed up too. (I know that’s just one part of what he’s been through, but it’s the part that stands out. No pun intended.) ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/289 "2014-04-23T13:52:29Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Did the Hound violate guest right by attacking his host, or does it only prevent the host from attacking the guest? Seems like he even made a comment about how it was worthless after the Red Wedding… On Earth at least the rules of hospitality/xenia were absolutely reciprocal among the cultures that put a strong value upon them. The host was honour bound to be courteous and to see that his host was not only taken care of and well fed while under his roof, but also to make an effort to protect them from harm. In return, the host was expected not to be a cunt or take advantage. Because naturally that would create a moral hazard on top of being ungrateful as all getout. ---
**Author:** ![tim-n-va](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim-n-va/32/3001_2.png) [@tim-n-va](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim-n-va)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/290 "2014-04-23T14:18:36Z")
> [@Vashbul](#): > > Just remembered this. A farmer tells his son, “nobody can boil a potato like your mum”. He is immediately killed. > > This happened because there were no potatoes in Europe, or anywhere outside of the Andes, until the Spanish brought them over in the latter part of the fifteenth century. So he absolutely deserved it. In the HBO world of Westeros, there is no Europe, no Andes and no Spanish. Existence of potatoes is just as acceptable as dragons. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/291 "2014-04-23T14:50:17Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > One thing I noticed on rewatch in his scene with Tommen : he starts pretty much taking a steaming dump on Joffrey’s legacy, then flashes a look at Cersei and goes something like “come with me now, kid, we can talk more about wisdom elsewhere” and leaves. Tywin always looks kind of like whoever he’s talking to has disappointed him \*again \*but I read that particular one as “Not gonna let you fuck \*that \*one up, I’m taking over”. Cold as it is, that’s not an unfair criticism. Joffrey may have been genetically predisposed to insanity, but without question he was a badly spoiled child: nobody ever said no to him because everyone knew he was going to be the next king. It’s part of what made him a more complex and interesting villain. He couldn’t be a mustache-twirling badass because you always saw he was a petulant child underneath. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/292 "2014-04-23T15:18:56Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > In addition to the part where he crushed the necklace showing that the fat knight was lying, there was the part where Littlefinger said he had the necklace made three weeks prior, and said that he paid the fat knight (I think 10,000 gold coins) for his involvement. But I agree that Olenna seemed to be involved as well. Littlefinger and the Tyrells clashed before when Oleanna wanted Sansa to marry Loras and Littlefinger wanted Sansa to go on the ship with him. He got what he wanted but they Tyrells didn’t get anything they wanted. I think the fat knight was hired to retrieve Sansa but not kill Joffrey. Littlefinger had help in killing Joffrey but I don’t think he got it from the Tyrells. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/293 "2014-04-23T15:26:20Z")
Well, someone had to put the poison in the glass. Olenna is still the likely culprit. I found it sort of cute when Daenerys did her “I’m going to offer you a false choice to make me feel better about myself” thing again. Like when she gave the unsullied a choice to follow her - a group of people who couldn’t even comprehend what she was offering or make a meaningful choice after what she’d been through, and also a group who had just seen her not only betray someone she just made a fair deal with, but murder everyone. This time she called for a volunteer, and then dismissed everyone else so that she was effectively ordering Daario to fight. But if he ended up dying, she could make herself feel better because she prodded him into volunteering. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/294 "2014-04-23T15:33:56Z")
> [@tim-n-va](#): > > In the HBO world of Westeros, there is no Europe, no Andes and no Spanish. Existence of potatoes is just as acceptable as dragons. FWIW, Tolkien wrestled with this same problem (and with tobacco) – he fudged the issue by calling them “taters” and “pipeweed”. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/295 "2014-04-23T15:34:39Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Littlefinger had help in killing Joffrey but I don’t think he got it from the Tyrells. Then we would need another explanation of what was up with Olenna and Sansa’s necklace. It looked for all the world like Olenna took something off the necklace, and unless we assume they were both trying to kill him independently the same day, that would mean she conspired with Littlefinger. There could be a lot of reasons they would work together, and it doesn’t mean they have anything in common other than wanting to see Joffrey dead. If the Tyrells helped kill him it doesn’t only have to be for Margaery’s sake (even though that’s a powerful motivation). Maybe they think they can get an upper hand on the Lannisters. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/296 "2014-04-23T15:54:23Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > FWIW, Tolkien wrestled with this same problem (and with tobacco) – he fudged the issue by calling them “taters” and “pipeweed”. Tolkien was actually writing a fictional history of the real world, though. That is, Middle Earth is supposed to actually be Europe, in some imaginary forgotten time. (At least, I’ve heard this claimed in various places, not sure of the original source – probably something from Tolkien’s many notes or letters.) Whereas, Game of Thrones is set in a fantasy world that just superficially resembles Europe in the middle ages. So historical inaccuracies are even less relevant. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/297 "2014-04-23T16:05:08Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Then we would need another explanation of what was up with Olenna and Sansa’s necklace. It looked for all the world like Olenna took something off the necklace, and unless we assume they were both trying to kill him independently the same day, that would mean she conspired with Littlefinger. Even if they both were trying to kill him independently, she couldn’t have known the necklace (which Littlefinger says he had made) would be useful for that purpose, unless she had discussed it with him. That is, assuming the necklace was the actual poison delivery system. Otherwise, it’s not clear what the point of removing the jewel was. At this point, all we know _without the benefit of the screen capture of Olenna taking the jewel_ is that Littlefinger had Ser Dontos give Sansa a fake necklace, then someone poisoned Joffrey (at least, everyone seems to assume it was poison), and then Ser Dontos sprited Sansa away. I wonder if that’s all we’re going to get, and “who killed Joffrey” will be lefts as a mystery to most viewers. With the benefit of those screen captures it seems to paint a much stronger picture that Littlefinger and Olenna were in cahoots, but it was very hard to spot that as it happened. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/298 "2014-04-23T16:16:05Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Did the Hound violate guest right by attacking his host, or does it only prevent the host from attacking the guest? Seems like he even made a comment about how it was worthless after the Red Wedding… I have no way of knowing but I have a feeling that guest right is something that pretty much exists for the nobility. Arya and Clegane are both nobles but the peasant of course wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/299 "2014-04-23T16:19:50Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > Tolkien was actually writing a fictional history of the real world, though. That is, Middle Earth is supposed to actually be Europe, in some imaginary forgotten time. (At least, I’ve heard this claimed in various places, not sure of the original source – probably something from Tolkien’s many notes or letters.) > > Whereas, Game of Thrones is set in a fantasy world that just superficially resembles Europe in the middle ages. So historical inaccuracies are even less relevant. Valid points, on both counts. Which makes an interesting conundrum for GRRM, or any fantasy author – if you get to choose your setting, with no bounds except your imagination, where do you draw the line between what’s familiar and what’s fantastic? In Martin’s world, he includes lemons and opium poppies, but also dragons and magic. And familiar words have had strange vowel shifts. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/300 "2014-04-23T16:33:47Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > I have no way of knowing but I have a feeling that guest right is something that pretty much exists for the nobility. Arya and Clegane are both nobles but the peasant of course wasn’t. I don’t know how it is in GoT, but in our world that’s deffo not true. As a quasi-religious (and in some cultures religious period) institution the rules of hospitality bound everyone tight regardless of status. That is not to say that people were bound to be hospitable to everyone - a lord might tell a poor traveller to fuck right off, and a peasant who’d refuse hospitality to a noble who’d hit on hard times would probably not have a good time. But once you’d broken bread, high or low born, emperor or beggar you did _not_ fuck with xenia. That would have been a great sacrilege. You know how nobody will let Jaime live down his Kingslaying even though he’s on their side ? That’s the kind of _ad vitam_ ostracism harming a guest (or a courteous host) would bring down on you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573.md?page=16)