# Game of Thrones 4.03 "Breaker of Chains" 4/20/14 \[No spoilers\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 21, 2014, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573 "2014-04-21T01:05:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/301 "2014-04-23T16:34:54Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > \ > At this point, all we know _without the benefit of the screen capture of Olenna taking the jewel_ is that Littlefinger had Ser Dontos give Sansa a fake necklace, then someone poisoned Joffrey (at least, everyone seems to assume it was poison), and then Ser Dontos sprited Sansa away. I wonder if that’s all we’re going to get, and “who killed Joffrey” will be lefts as a mystery to most viewers. With the benefit of those screen captures it seems to paint a much stronger picture that Littlefinger and Olenna were in cahoots, but it was very hard to spot that as it happened. Don’t forget that Joffrey’s King Pimp Cup was also in front of Olenna while everyone’s attention was somewhere else (the serving of the Dove Pie), giving her good opportunity to put some poison in it. ---
**Author:** ![oft\_wears\_hats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7993a0/32.png) [@oft\_wears\_hats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oft_wears_hats)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/302 "2014-04-23T16:44:53Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Don’t forget that Joffrey’s King Pimp Cup was also in front of Olenna while everyone’s attention was somewhere else (the serving of the Dove Pie), giving her good opportunity to put some poison in it. I considered that, and had noticed Olenna messing with Sansa’s necklace, but there’s a King’s Guardsman right between Olenna’s and Joffrey’s tables. It seems like a stretch to think that a guard would just ignore someone screwing with the king’s goblet. They should be paying attention regardless of the other distractions. Having recently read a book on poisons and chemical forensics in Jazz Age America, I’ve been wondering what kind of poison was used on Joffrey based on his symptoms. Honestly though, it’s probably the venom of the dreaded plot viper: kills quickly and painfully, with whatever symptoms scream “I have been poisoned.” This is, after all, _Game of Thrones_ and not _CSI: Westoros_. Still, they’ve discussed nightshade or something similar before (2.09?), so I could see them at least mentioning the name of a real or fictional poison once everything is revealed. Still, disregarding all the crap Tyrion and Sansa are going through, it would be hilarious if the little jerk just choked on his pie, or died of an especially virulent strain of Westoros avian flu. ---
**Author:** ![oft\_wears\_hats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7993a0/32.png) [@oft\_wears\_hats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oft_wears_hats)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/303 "2014-04-23T16:46:56Z")
That reminds me: has anyone discussed possible repercussions for Jaime? He’s the head of the King’s Guard, and Joffrey was poisoned right under his nose, on his wedding day. Seems like a pretty bad screw up, and I’m surprised we didn’t see him getting some heat for it. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/304 "2014-04-23T16:47:07Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > FWIW, Tolkien wrestled with this same problem (and with tobacco) – he fudged the issue by calling them “taters” and “pipeweed”. If I remember rightly, “tobacco” is the penultimate word in The Hobbit. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/305 "2014-04-23T16:56:18Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > If I remember rightly, “tobacco” is the penultimate word in The Hobbit. You may be right; it’s a long time since I’ve read The Hobbit. But I’m 99% sure the word doesn’t appear in LOTR; Tolkien did a lot of “normalization” between Hobbit and LOTR. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/306 "2014-04-23T17:08:43Z")
I don’t think Shae is gone, on the basis of Bronn’s oddness when Tyrion was asking about her. Before Tyrion was implicated in the poisoning, I had been guessing this means Tywin had her and was going to kill her. But that seems unnecessary now that Tyrion is in such shit. Or is it? If someone does have her, I wonder if she’ll be used to pressure Tyrion into confessing to the crime or some other sort of leverage like that. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Burden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/958977/32.png) [@Jack\_Burden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Burden)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/307 "2014-04-23T17:12:15Z")
> [@oft\_wears\_hats](#): > > I considered that, and had noticed Olenna messing with Sansa’s necklace, but there’s a King’s Guardsman right between Olenna’s and Joffrey’s tables. It seems like a stretch to think that a guard would just ignore someone screwing with the king’s goblet. They should be paying attention regardless of the other distractions. > Having recently read a book on poisons and chemical forensics in Jazz Age America, I’ve been wondering what kind of poison was used on Joffrey based on his symptoms. Honestly though, it’s probably the venom of the dreaded plot viper: kills quickly and painfully, with whatever symptoms scream “I have been poisoned.” This is, after all, _Game of Thrones_ and not _CSI: Westoros_. Still, they’ve discussed nightshade or something similar before (2.09?), so I could see them at least mentioning the name of a real or fictional poison once everything is revealed. > > Still, disregarding all the crap Tyrion and Sansa are going through, it would be hilarious if the little jerk just choked on his pie, or died of an especially virulent strain of Westoros avian flu. Pod’s conversation with Tyrion makes it clear that a poison called “The Strangler” is suspected. ---
**Author:** ![oft\_wears\_hats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7993a0/32.png) [@oft\_wears\_hats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oft_wears_hats)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/308 "2014-04-23T17:17:19Z")
Ah, I must have missed or forgotten that bit of dialogue. We were watching it with the volume a bit low. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/309 "2014-04-23T17:26:20Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > …I’m remembering a rape warning for a TV show too, but I don’t remember what show. Might have been a movie. On a relatively recent broadcast of _Downton Abbey_, there was a warning just before the episode in which Anna was raped, but the warning did not specifically say that the episode would include a rape (which happened off-camera, in any event). > [@tim314](#): > > Tolkien was actually writing a fictional history of the real world, though. That is, Middle Earth is supposed to actually be Europe, in some imaginary forgotten time. (At least, I’ve heard this claimed in various places, not sure of the original source – probably something from Tolkien’s many notes or letters.)… Quite so: [Middle-earth - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle-earth#Correspondence_with_the_geography_of_Earth) > [@Bozuit](#): > > If I remember rightly, “tobacco” is the penultimate word in The Hobbit. Yes - or the last word, given the hyphenation: _“Thank goodness!” said Bilbo laughing, and handed him [Gandalf] the tobacco-jar._ ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@Charlie\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/310 "2014-04-23T17:31:17Z")
> [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > Those are the same rules of succession used quite commonly here on Earth. > > When George VI of Great Britain died, his wife Elizabeth, Queen consort of the United Kingdom and the British Dominions, didn’t inherit his throne; it went to their daughter. The daughter became Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God, of Great Britain, Ireland and the British Dominions beyond the Seas, Queen, Defender of the Faith…while her mother became known as Queen Elizabeth, the Queen Mother. But the Queen Mother was never at any point the reigning monarch; that title is passed by blood (or conquest) not marriage. > > For the same reason, when Elizabeth II dies, the throne will not pass to Prince Philip, even though they have been married for 66 years. To the best of my recollection, Elizabeth II took the throne when her father (George VI) died. That means that here on Earth, it certainly is possible for a female to become the one and only ruler of the nation (the UK nation). > **[Elizabeth II](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_II)** > > Elizabeth II (Elizabeth Alexandra Mary; 21 April 1926 – 8 September 2022) was Queen of the United Kingdom and other Commonwealth realms from 6 February 1952 until her death in 2022. She had been queen regnant of 32 sovereign states during her lifetime and was the monarch of 15 realms at her death. Her reign of 70 years and 214 days is the longest of any British monarch, the second-longest of any sovereign state, and the longest of any queen regnant in history. > Elizabeth was born in Mayfair,... That seems to me to be markedly different from what happens in Westeros. When Robert Baratheon died, Cersei was not made Queen. She was made Queen Regent which is not nearly as good as Queen. It seems that succession passed from Robert to his eldest son. In other words, the sitting Queen was not good enough to take the power and become the one and only ruler. It was her son who became King and she was named Queen Regent only because Joffrey was not old enough to become the King. This was all laid out upthread in a few posts and it seemed to be very clear to me. The rules of succession that affect the UK are quite different from those that affect Westeros. The biggest difference seems to be that Westeros insists on having a male ruler whereas the UK is willing to have a female ruler. I think the reason for that was that Elizabeth I worked out real good for the UK. They were very happy with her. By the time Elizabeth II became Queen, the actual power was no longer vested in the monarchy but was instead vested in an elected legislative body. The Queen is largely a ceremonial position. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/311 "2014-04-23T17:34:42Z")
> [@Charlie\_Wayne](#): > > To the best of my recollection, Elizabeth II took the throne when her father (George VI) died. That means that here on Earth, it is possible for a female to become the one and only ruler of the nation (the UK nation). Cersei isn’t comparable to Elizabeth II because she was not born into the royal family. She married into it, like Elizabeth II’s mother (also named Elizabeth). That Elizabeth never became queen. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/312 "2014-04-23T17:39:35Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > I have no way of knowing but I have a feeling that guest right is something that pretty much exists for the nobility. Arya and Clegane are both nobles but the peasant of course wasn’t. But peasant-dad was going on about how bad it was what Walder Frey had done… so at least he clearly believes in the rules importance as much as any noble. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/313 "2014-04-23T17:49:07Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Cersei isn’t comparable to Elizabeth II because she was not born into the royal family. She married into it, like Elizabeth II’s mother (also named Elizabeth). That Elizabeth never became queen. Yes, and it’s implied regarding Sansa that if there is only a female heir, that female would take over. So if Tommen died without producing an heir then Myrcella would take over. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/314 "2014-04-23T17:52:47Z")
> [@Charlie\_Wayne](#): > > The rules of succession that affect the UK are quite different from those that affect Westeros. The biggest difference seems to be that Westeros insists on having a male ruler whereas the UK is willing to have a female ruler. My impression is that, in Westeros, priority goes: (1) Closest male descendent of the monarch (2) Closest female descendent of the monarch (3) Closest male blood-relative of the monarch I’m not so sure about the order of (2) vs. (3). Within equally close relations, priority is in age order. As evidence of this, Joffrey and then Tommen get the throne as King Robert’s sons. Their sister, though, is in line behind Tommen despite being older than him. Cersei married Robert rather than being a blood relative, so she’s not in line for the throne. To those who recognize Cersei’s children as Jamie’s, the priority goes to the next closest male relatives of Robert – his two brothers, with higher priority going to the elder brother, Stannis. As evidence that females can inherit, Daenerys considers herself the rightful heir as the only surviving descendent of the last legitimate king. (She considers Robert and his heirs to be unlawful usurpers.) I think this is not that different to how things were historically done in England, but I might be wrong about that. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/315 "2014-04-23T17:53:50Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > Yes, and it’s implied regarding Sansa that if there is only a female heir, that female would take over. So if Tommen died without producing an heir then Myrcella would take over. Good point about Sansa. I believe Tywin wanted Tyrion married to her, because it cements the Lannister’s claim to the North (since so far as they known Bran and Rickon are dead, making Sansa next in line.) ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/316 "2014-04-23T17:55:00Z")
> [@Charlie\_Wayne](#): > > The rules of succession that affect the UK are quite different from those that affect Westeros. The biggest difference seems to be that Westeros insists on having a male ruler whereas the UK is willing to have a female ruler. I think the reason for that was that Elizabeth I worked out real good for the UK. They were very happy with her. I don’t believe that Westerosi law _requires_ a male ruler; it’s simply that all male children are higher in the line of succession than any female child (just like Great Britain until just recently). Certainly Daenerys seems to have a valid claim to the throne, as the only living child of the Mad King Aerys. Similarly, everyone seems to accept Sansa as the heir to Winterfell now that (as far as anyone knows) all of her brothers are dead. Of course, there’s no throne involved there, but that’s only because the “King in the North” got himself killed before he actually had a chance to sit in his throne… ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/317 "2014-04-23T17:56:24Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > Yes, and it’s implied regarding Sansa that if there is only a female heir, that female would take over. So if Tommen died without producing an heir then Myrcella would take over. In season one Sansa has a conversation with her septa in which she asks what would happen if she only bore daughters for Joffrey. Her septa told her that the throne would pass to Tommen and not to her daughters. So available males of the family will always take preference over even direct female descendants. So if Tommen were to die I think Stannis would be the next in line, legally-speaking. Of course nobody would let that happen, but that’s the way it seems supposed to work. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/318 "2014-04-23T17:58:47Z")
> [@Charlie\_Wayne](#): > > I don’t think I’ve seen this point raised before. But wouldn’t it have been a hundred times better for them to have killed Joffrey a day after the wedding so that Margaery could have remained Queen? Also, the Tyrell family would have then had some control over the future of the ruling family of Westeros. > > The people involved in the assassination are supposedly experts in the Game of Thrones. So, what am I missing? How does it make any sense at all to kill him before the marriage is consummated? Is there any reason at all to do it that way? > [@Charlie\_Wayne](#): > > But why would she need to marry Tommen? > > Wouldn’t she be the Queen if the marriage had been consummated? > > If a King and Queen are in power for a long, long time and then the King dies, do you mean to say that in Westeros the Queen is thrown out of power unless she finds some new man to marry and he becomes the King? > > Seems like some very strange rules of succession to me. There is no European monarchy in which a queen consort gets to remain queen after her husband dies. And that’s what Cersei and Margaery are – queens consort – they never hold power in their own right. A queen regnant – like Elizabeth I or Victoria or Elizabeth II – are different. A queen regnant is a monarch herself. She is not merely queen as a result if being married to the king. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/319 "2014-04-23T18:01:55Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > But peasant-dad was going on about how bad it was what Walder Frey had done… so at least he clearly believes in the rules importance as much as any noble. Please. His name is stew-dad. This to not confuse him with potato-dad, who gets an arrow in the skull. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Vashbul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Vashbul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vashbul)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/320 "2014-04-23T18:27:29Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > I don’t think Shae is gone, on the basis of Bronn’s oddness when Tyrion was asking about her. Before Tyrion was implicated in the poisoning, I had been guessing this means Tywin had her and was going to kill her. But that seems unnecessary now that Tyrion is in such shit. Or is it? If someone does have her, I wonder if she’ll be used to pressure Tyrion into confessing to the crime or some other sort of leverage like that. Shae’s in on the plot. She might be on Littlefinger’s boat. Bronn may or may not have taken her to Littlefinger, but I bet she knew ahead of time that something shady was afoot, and her big dramatic scene with Tyrion was her way of getting him to kick her out of his life for good, I suppose so he wouldn’t worry about her, because she was already planning to disappear. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573.md?page=17)