# Game of Thrones 4.03 "Breaker of Chains" 4/20/14 \[No spoilers\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 21, 2014, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573 "2014-04-21T01:05:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/321 "2014-04-23T19:38:40Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > In season one Sansa has a conversation with her septa in which she asks what would happen if she only bore daughters for Joffrey. Her septa told her that the throne would pass to Tommen and not to her daughters. So available males of the family will always take preference over even direct female descendants. So if Tommen were to die I think Stannis would be the next in line, legally-speaking. Of course nobody would let that happen, but that’s the way it seems supposed to work. Was that before or after Robert died? If it’s before, then it’s consistent with the understanding that it’s the eldest male descendent of the current king who gets first dibs. But if it’s after Robert died, then it’s suggesting that male relatives trump female descendents – i.e. that King Joffrey’s brother would trump King Joffrey’s hypothetical daughter. Edited to add: Actually, I’m wrong, because Robert would have died and the succession passed to Joffrey before it became an issue. I doubt they were talking about what would happen if Joffrey died _before_ Robert. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/322 "2014-04-23T19:57:54Z")
The scene in question: > [@](#): > > Septa Mordane : Someday your husband will sit there and you will sit by his side. And one day, before too long, you will present your son to the court. All the lords of Westeros will gather here to see the little prince… > > Sansa Stark : What if I have a girl ? > > Septa Mordane : Gods be good, you’ll have boys and girls and plenty of them. > > Sansa Stark : What if I only have girls ? > > Septa Mordane : I wouldn’t worry about that. > > Sansa Stark : Jeyne Poole’s mother had five children, all of them girls. > > Septa Mordane : Yes, but it’s highly unlikely. > > Sansa Stark : But what if ? > > Septa Mordane : If you only had girls, I suppose the throne would pass to Prince Joffrey’s little brother. > > Sansa Stark : And everyone would hate me. > > Septa Mordane : Nobody could ever hate you. > > Sansa Stark : Joffrey does. ---
**Author:** ![Vashbul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Vashbul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vashbul)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/323 "2014-04-23T20:21:08Z")
> [@tim-n-va](#): > > In the HBO world of Westeros, there is no Europe, no Andes and no Spanish. Existence of potatoes is just as acceptable as dragons. Dragons are mythical, potatoes are a mistake. There are no Mythical Potatoes. But fine, a complex story like this can’t get all the details right. I just don’t want to hear you apologists wail and whine when someone pulls out a cell phone or drives up in a pickup truck next episode. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/324 "2014-04-23T20:27:26Z")
> [@Vashbul](#): > > Dragons are mythical, potatoes are a mistake. There are no Mythical Potatoes. > > But fine, a complex story like this can’t get all the details right. I just don’t want to hear you apologists wail and whine when someone pulls out a cell phone or drives up in a pickup truck next episode. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![obfusciatrist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/4af34b/32.png) [@obfusciatrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obfusciatrist)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/325 "2014-04-23T20:29:05Z")
“potatoes” are no more of a mistake than the fact that the main people on the show speak English. It is a convention used to make it easier for the audience to know what the hell they’re talking about. If the person said “nobody boils a kerflogglebusteringermeister like you’re mother” then they’d have to show us a something to make it clear that a kerfloggleusteringermeister is a potato like food item in Westeros and not town rabblerousers who are punished with boiling. Being bothered by potato isn’t really any more reasonable than being bothered by them riding horses, reading books, wearing pants, sleeping in beds, and living in castles. If they have those, why can’t they have potatoes? And if they don’t have potatoes why not just go with the flow and assume it is some food item that doesn’t exist in our reality but by a linguistic quirk the English of Westeros happened to call them potatoes? So I’d say first complain that the entire show isn’t subtitled and presented in fictional languages and then debate whether the English language analogs used for the subtitles are justified. ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/326 "2014-04-23T20:30:44Z")
> [@Vashbul](#): > > There are no Mythical Potatoes. In Latvia, all potatoes mythical. Such is life. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/327 "2014-04-23T20:31:36Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Cersei isn’t comparable to Elizabeth II because she was not born into the royal family. She married into it, like Elizabeth II’s mother (also named Elizabeth). **That Elizabeth never became queen**. Not so. She became a queen consort upon her husband becoming king, and became queen mother upon her husband’s death and her daughter’s accession to the throne. She was queen mother until she herself died many years later. > [@Acsenray](#): > > **There is no European monarchy in which a queen consort gets to remain queen after her husband dies**. And that’s what Cersei and Margaery are – queens consort – they never hold power in their own right… But they, like Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother, retain the title “Queen” even after their husbands die. It’s just a different kind of queen. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/328 "2014-04-23T20:43:25Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Not so. She became a queen consort upon her husband becoming king, and became queen mother upon her husband’s death and her daughter’s accession to the throne. She was queen mother until she herself died many years later. Right, my wording was not precise enough. She was called the queen, but didn’t rule the country and never held power in her own right. When her husband the king died, the crown passed to her daughter. That’s the same basic situation Cersei is in. ---
**Author:** ![Vashbul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Vashbul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vashbul)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/329 "2014-04-23T20:43:54Z")
> [@obfusciatrist](#): > > “potatoes” are no more of a mistake than the fact that the main people on the show speak English. > > It is a convention used to make it easier for the audience to know what the hell they’re talking about. If the person said “nobody boils a kerflogglebusteringermeister like you’re mother” then they’d have to show us a something to make it clear that a kerfloggleusteringermeister is a potato like food item in Westeros and not town rabblerousers who are punished with boiling. > > Being bothered by potato isn’t really any more reasonable than being bothered by them riding horses, reading books, wearing pants, sleeping in beds, and living in castles. If they have those, why can’t they have potatoes? > > And if they don’t have potatoes why not just go with the flow and assume it is some food item that doesn’t exist in our reality but by a linguistic quirk the English of Westeros happened to call them potatoes? > > So I’d say first complain that the entire show isn’t subtitled and presented in fictional languages and then debate whether the English language analogs used for the subtitles are justified. Oh dear. The somersaults some people will perform to excuse a frankly trivial flaw, but a flaw nonetheless. They could have used turnips. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/330 "2014-04-23T20:51:09Z")
**Vashbul** , I guess I don’t get it. What’s wrong with them using potatoes? Sure, they didn’t have them in medieval Europe, but so what? This is Westeros. Having someone pull out a cell-phone would be different, because it contradicts the established fact that Westeros is some sort of pre-industrial society (plus magic). But I don’t think it’s _ever_ been established that Westeros only has old-world flora. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/331 "2014-04-23T20:59:51Z")
> [@Vashbul](#): > > Oh dear. The somersaults some people will perform to excuse a frankly trivial flaw, but a flaw nonetheless. You could say the same thing about people finding stuff to complain about. The show isn’t set in Europe or the Americas. You can assume potatoes are native to their world just as easily as you can assume turnips are native. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/332 "2014-04-23T21:00:58Z")
Westeros is not Europe. Full stop. It might be inspired by real-world history but that does not make it an analogy for real-world history. ---
**Author:** ![Vashbul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Vashbul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vashbul)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/333 "2014-04-23T21:11:43Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > **Vashbul** , I guess I don’t get it. What’s wrong with them using potatoes? Sure, they didn’t have them in medieval Europe, but so what? This is Westeros. > > Having someone pull out a cell-phone would be different, because it contradicts the established fact that Westeros is some sort of pre-industrial society (plus magic). But I don’t think it’s _ever_ been established that Westeros only has old-world flora. “This is Westeros”, boom, that settles it. The potatoes don’t bother me that much, I pointed them out because is was funny, and I got to make a teensy weensy point about how you can go to great lengths to build up a credible quasi-historical backdrop, and some goofball on the internet (me) will still find something to pick apart. So it goes. They said potato and I said po-tah-to; it just so happens that po-tah-to is correct, even in Westeros. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/334 "2014-04-23T21:16:37Z")
My potato is my cite. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/335 "2014-04-23T21:39:31Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > You may be right; it’s a long time since I’ve read The Hobbit. But I’m 99% sure the word doesn’t appear in LOTR; Tolkien did a lot of “normalization” between Hobbit and LOTR. Yeah, I’ve noticed a significant difference in terminology from generic to something more Tolkienesque between The Hobbit and LotR. I must admit I was being a bit pedantic, partly because I just happen to (vaguely) remember the last sentence of The Hobbit. Everyone seems to remember the first. > [@SenorBeef](#): > > I don’t think Shae is gone, on the basis of Bronn’s oddness when Tyrion was asking about her. Before Tyrion was implicated in the poisoning, I had been guessing this means Tywin had her and was going to kill her. But that seems unnecessary now that Tyrion is in such shit. Or is it? If someone does have her, I wonder if she’ll be used to pressure Tyrion into confessing to the crime or some other sort of leverage like that. > [@Vashbul](#): > > Shae’s in on the plot. She might be on Littlefinger’s boat. Bronn may or may not have taken her to Littlefinger, but I bet she knew ahead of time that something shady was afoot, and her big dramatic scene with Tyrion was her way of getting him to kick her out of his life for good, I suppose so he wouldn’t worry about her, because she was already planning to disappear. > [@jsc1953](#): > > You may be right; it’s a long time since I’ve read The Hobbit. But I’m 99% sure the word doesn’t appear in LOTR; Tolkien did a lot of “normalization” between Hobbit and LOTR. I’ve been wondering about that. Shae seems somewhat loyal to Sansa, and if they both have to get the hell out of there it makes some sense to do it together. But Tyrion is their real link, and is considerably smarter - Sansa is pathetic and Shae is somewhat foolish. Why would Bronn and Shae hide from Tyrion the fact that they’re working together to get Sansa to safety? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/336 "2014-04-23T22:36:39Z")
> [@BlackKnight](#): > > In Latvia, all potatoes mythical. Such is life. In Soviet [del]Russia[/del]Qarth, potato boils you. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/337 "2014-04-23T22:46:31Z")
> [@oft\_wears\_hats](#): > > I considered that, and had noticed Olenna messing with Sansa’s necklace, but there’s a King’s Guardsman right between Olenna’s and Joffrey’s tables. It seems like a stretch to think that a guard would just ignore someone screwing with the king’s goblet. They should be paying attention regardless of the other distractions. > [@Bozuit](#): > > Why would Bronn and Shae hide from Tyrion the fact that they’re working together to get Sansa to safety? These do seem like problems in the writing. Certainly the guards wouldn’t realistically have been distracted by “the pie” since clearly (from the very existence of the phrase), having a fancy pie (complete with doves or whatever) appear is a fairly routine thing to have happen at a feast. “The Pie” implies that the appearance of a masterpiece from the kitchen is a show that people look forward to, and expect. And like you, Bozuit, I’m stumped for reasons that Bronn (at least) would have kept secret from Tyrion any plans involving either Shae or Sansa or both. As for the potatoes: it’s a fair thing to mention, given that the world of GoT gains verisimilitude precisely because it IS based on medieval Europe. (To repeat: Not IS Medieval Europe–is _based_ on it.) We buy into the whole shebang of kings and lords and knights and peasants _because_ it’s familiar. Which leads to one of my top annoyances about Martin’s world: among the most important and influential factors that made ‘Medieval Europe’ the way it was, was the power of The Church. Martin’s version of The Church seems to be brought in only every once in a while when the feeling evoked by ‘a ceremony in a cathedral’ is needed for a scene. Otherwise, it’s irrelevant. (My other major complaint is that the entire corpus of maneuverings and plots and counter-plots and conspiracies and ploys taking place in Westeros, is pretty much _meaningless_ if Dany shows up there with the dragons and an army of yea-many million ex-slaves. Game _over_, dudes!) ((Which, I assume, means that the yea-many millions of troops will NOT make it to Westeros. Or will perish shortly after reaching shore. Which is getting way ahead of this episode (and I type all this as a non-reader of the books, of course)—but certainly that development will render the ‘freeing the slaves’ scenes in this episode quite moot.)) ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/338 "2014-04-23T22:54:30Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Which leads to one of my top annoyances about Martin’s world: among the most important and influential factors that made ‘Medieval Europe’ the way it was, was the power of The Church. Martin’s version of The Church seems to be brought in only every once in a while when the feeling evoked by ‘a ceremony in a cathedral’ is needed for a scene. Otherwise, it’s irrelevant. > > (My other major complaint is that the entire corpus of maneuverings and plots and counter-plots and conspiracies and ploys taking place in Westeros, is pretty much _meaningless_ if Dany shows up there with the dragons and an army of yea-many million ex-slaves. Game _over_, dudes!) A fair point; but it may be that in Medieval Europe, Christianity was the only game on the block, whereas in Westeros there’s The Seven, The Old Gods, The Drowned God, the God of Light…lots of sects and cults. So maybe The Seven isn’t quite as ingrained as Christianity was. I have the same feeling about Dany’s story: it’s like we’re watching some minor squabble between medieval European fiefdoms; meanwhile, a nuclear armed Red Army is massing on the eastern border, ready to kick ass and take names. But I’m perfectly willing to go along for the ride and see how it plays out. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/339 "2014-04-23T23:19:12Z")
Well I feel better now. The debate about “Is Dany part dragon?” was silly and largely pointless, but it was in no way even remotely as pathetic and sad as the potato debate. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/340 "2014-04-23T23:26:56Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > … I have the same feeling about Dany’s story: it’s like we’re watching some minor squabble between medieval European fiefdoms; meanwhile, a nuclear armed Red Army is massing on the eastern border, ready to kick ass and take names. Excellent analogy! …Those who read the books may know how Martin plans to solve this little problem…or then again, given hints I’ve heard here and there, possibly he hasn’t yet tackled it. :eek: But the television showrunners will HAVE to (eventually). > [@jsc1953](#): > > But I’m perfectly willing to go along for the ride and see how it plays out. Heh. With all my reservations, I expect I’ll end up doing the same. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573.md?page=18)