# Game of Thrones 4.03 "Breaker of Chains" 4/20/14 \[No spoilers\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 21, 2014, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573 "2014-04-21T01:05:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![ctnguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@ctnguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ctnguy)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/81 "2014-04-21T21:08:27Z")
> [@araminty](#): > > I think Aidan Gillan’s accent is a bit affected - maybe he or a director decided to attempt to add complexities to his speech as a way of hinting at his different, less privileged background. > [@Acsenray](#): > > Maybe Littlefinger is supposed to sound like he’s trying hard to put on an accent from a station above his origins. But it still sounds very weird to me because you’d think he would be more convincing. Baelish was fostered at Riverrun by House Tully, so I wouldn’t really expect him to sound any less posh than Catelyn or Edmure. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/82 "2014-04-21T21:10:37Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > In this episode he struck me as being sort of a working-class Tywin: an essentially amoral person who won’t be a hypocrite or apologize for his behavior, and can justify anything he does. Unlike Tywin he seems deeply embittered by his experiences and perhaps PTSD-ed by the Battle of the Blackwater. ISTM that the Hound probably draws a distinction between being thievery and a robbery too. One is sneaky the other is “honest” as far as a sell-sword goes. He didn’t even kill the guy. Also, just how evil does a woman have to be before we stop caring if she was raped? ---
**Author:** ![Leonard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a6a055/32.png) [@Leonard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leonard)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/83 "2014-04-21T21:15:56Z")
I don’t really care if anyone imaginary is raped. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/84 "2014-04-21T21:16:57Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > ISTM that the Hound probably draws a distinction between being thievery and a robbery too. One is sneaky the other is “honest” as far as a sell-sword goes. He didn’t even kill the guy. > > Also, just how evil does a woman have to be before we stop caring if she was raped? You don’t have to care about Cersei to care that Jamie is now a rapist when he seemed to want to turn into a honorable knight like Brienne. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/85 "2014-04-21T21:22:00Z")
> [@JSexton](#): > > You may not recall, but we have already met someone who held that title. Yeah, I know; I just wondered if this conversation means he will be surfacing soon. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/86 "2014-04-21T21:22:57Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > You don’t have to care about Cersei to care that Jamie is now a rapist when he seemed to want to turn into a honorable knight like Brienne. I don’t think he had any hope of being as honorable as Brienne. I think he was always going to be a bit of a shit but had the sense to feel a little guilty about it when around Brienne. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/87 "2014-04-21T21:30:10Z")
> [@Wile\_E](#): > > Yes, it’s pretty much the same thing over and over. I am only interested in her story for the dragons and we didn’t even get to see them. For that matter she didn’t even need to do the whole speechy thing just walk up and say “I have dragons!” Dragons swoop in and set people on fire and then on to the next town with more free slaves than she can handle, and so on and so on. Oh, that’s silly. I appreciate you wanted more dragon action, but her selling herself to the slaves (get it?lol) before attacking isn’t a ridiculous plot point. It’s not like the masters in the new town were telling all their slaves that a savior was coming to town. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/88 "2014-04-21T21:30:33Z")
ETA: @ **SenorBeef** re post #80 Well, first of all he’s outright said that he’d rather die than get raped, and couldn’t stomach the idea of Brienne (who at the time really wasn’t his best of friends) getting raped either. So the guy knows it’s a bit of a big deal. Furthermore for years, decades even he’s been consoling Cersei, who shall we say had a somewhat negative emotional reaction to her husband’s bedroom etiquette. Which might possibly conceivably be the very thing that gave Jaime such empathy for rape victims in the first place, who knows. Finally, he’s completely devoted to the woman, to the point of flinging kids out of windows to protect her. And that guy is going to throw the woman he’s loved his whole life down on the floor, tear her dress away and hatefuck her ? The guy that the past two seasons have been spent establishing is ultimately a bleeding heart turned cynical and self-loathing by the world he lives in ? That guy is going to rape the one person in the world he respects (well, Brienne might be #2), and on the day his bloody \*son \*died too ? Reply to her begging him to stop with “I don’t care” ? Yeah, no. I’m sorry, but no. And Cersei’s reactions are not fucking ambiguous. She’s struggling, she’s pleading and “not here” still means no. Implicit consent ? What in the honest fuck… ? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/89 "2014-04-21T21:34:40Z")
I guess I’d feel worse about it if she hadn’t just been demanding that he kill their brother. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/90 "2014-04-21T21:40:40Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > How does it make no sense? > > We have a character who has been imprisoned for the last year, who’s kept himself going with the idea of returning to his family, and his true love, his sister, for the whole time. He takes a very dangerous and exhausting journey as a captive, gets maimed and loses his identity in the process, and after all this trouble, he finally makes it home, and his family and his sister reject him anyway. > > His sister is completely cold to him, essentially blaming him for being a victim. His father more or less disowns him. He’s frustrated that he can’t fulfill his knightly oath to Brienne. His son scoffs at the idea that he can protect him without his hand, and turns to Meryn as his primary protector. He recommits to the kingsguard rather than to be his father’s heir, and yet he loses another king - his son - right under his nose. No one is happy that he’s back, he’s more or less rejected by everyone - except Tyrion. > > He’s under all of that psychological stress and disappointment and now he’s in that very room with his one love, and the corpse of their first son. It’s a very emotional time for him and at the very least he would at this point expect some closeness from his sister. And she hints at it - starting to be affectionate with him - but apparently only as a tool to attempt to get him to murder his brother, the only person in his family that didn’t reject him since he returned. > > So he’s overtaken by a wide array of feelings. Resentment, anger, lust, frustration, helplessness, unrequited love, loss, sorrow. His sister shows reserved affections towards him - is it manipulation or simply a confused set of emotions on her part too? He’s overcome by the moment, an emotional need to connect with someone, to share something vital and close. > > And her reactions are at least somewhat ambiguous. At first she says “not here” rather than simply “no”, and even after she protests, she still proactively responds to him by kissing him back at some points. She’s filled with conflicted emotions too, briefly giving in to the same needs that he has, but then realizing that it isn’t appropriate, going back and forth between implicit permission and rejection. > > It’s not hard to believe that he’s simply overcome in the moment - I don’t know what you feel is supposed to be so out of character for him. I thought the conflicted nature of the scene, the sort of squeamish sort of rape was portrayed pretty well and makes sense. Not to get into a, er, beef here, but: You really seem to be saying here that if a man is emotionally wounded, it’s pretty much okay for him to force himself on a woman. I mean, how are you NOT saying that? Also, the rationale (mentioned in the fifth paragraph, above) that the woman was “ambiguous” and “conflicted,” and that this (whether true or only perceived as true by the male character) makes it okay to rape: is that really a good philosophy? In the scene as filmed, the female character said “no” many times. Are we really going for acceptance of the old “no means yes” justification, here? ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/91 "2014-04-21T21:41:32Z")
I have absolutely no idea how you get that from what he said. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/92 "2014-04-21T21:41:58Z")
He’s saying it “makes sense” in the story, not that rape is ok. Sheesh. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/93 "2014-04-21T21:44:13Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > And Cersei’s reactions are not fucking ambiguous. She’s struggling, she’s pleading and “not here” still means no. Implicit consent ? What in the honest fuck… ? Yeah, that’s how the scene read to me, too. I didn’t see any ‘yes’ at all in Cersei’s reactions. Good points, too, about the negative attitude toward committing rape that has already been established–in more than one scene, as you point out–for the character (Jaime). ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/94 "2014-04-21T21:44:15Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I guess I’d feel worse about it if she hadn’t just been demanding that he kill their brother. So she deserved a little bit o’ rape ? :dubious: She’s wracked with grief and wants immediate revenge on who (she is absolutely convinced, because Cersei :p) killed him. That’s not crazy, or evil. It’s what people do who’ve lost loved ones violently. It’s also why we have a justice system in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/95 "2014-04-21T21:47:29Z")
Yeah. Maybe she does deserve a little rape. What of it? She did engineer the murder of an entire family, you know. ---
**Author:** ![LibrarySpy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f9ae1b/32.png) [@LibrarySpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LibrarySpy)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/96 "2014-04-21T21:53:58Z")
I’m just adding my opinion to the pyre. Jamie was the sexual aggressor with Cersei in S1. He was doing her fucking doggie style when Bran saw them. He calls her his true love, but I’d buy easy access. However, from what he’s said of Cersei, he may basically see her as his wife. I don’t think he would equate what he’s doing with Cersei to what mercenaries were going to do to Brienne, but he’s still totally raping Cersei. He’s mad at her and consumed by lust and grief, so he takes her. Understandable. A better man would have walked away from Cersei long ago. Maybe? Not if she’s the mother of your children. Domestic violence, it happens. Not the first time, not the last, for our blonde duo. I’m not shocked that a male writer and a male director are echoing “No, she’s totally into it, that’s totally hot!” :smack: I’m more offended by it not being rape that I am by it being rape, and I don’t think it’s out of character for a guy who’s murdered his fair share of innocent people (Eddard’s bodyguard, the cousin squire who got caged with him), whose idea of sex is 1) with his sister and 2) the great consumption of whores by Robert (while he listens) and Tyrion, and the Kingslayer with all the psychopathy that entails. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/97 "2014-04-21T21:54:44Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Yeah, no. I’m sorry, but no. > And Cersei’s reactions are not fucking ambiguous. She’s struggling, she’s pleading and “not here” still means no. Implicit consent ? What in the honest fuck… ? You should watch the scene again. There are several points where she struggles with him, and then pro-actively kisses back at him, and then struggles again. When I say she was wavering between implied consent and rejection, that’s what I’m talking about. Her objections are also much more along the lines of “not here” rather than “don’t touch me” I’m not advocating rape, or saying his actions were justified, I’m addressing the objection that it was out of character for him. I should add that from what we’ve seen of them, he can be pretty forceful and she seems to be into it, so reluctance and power play probably isn’t foreign to them. I’m struggling to recall the specifics, but we’ve had another scene of them together where she was putting up some degree of protest and he was forceful with her and she ultimately was into it. Given the circumstances, while it may be rape, it’s not the same sort of unambiguous, clear, sadistic rape that Brienne was going to get, that Jamie saved her from. I think rape is such a sensitive issue that people here aren’t receptive to ambiguity in it - the very fact that some people are reading this thread as me justifying rape indicates that some people aren’t terribly level headed on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/98 "2014-04-21T21:56:10Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > It’s also why we have a justice system in the first place. And I’d like to point out that this shows you’ve kiiiinda lost touch about what we are talking about. No, “we” don’t have a justice system in Westeros. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/99 "2014-04-21T21:56:37Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Yeah. Maybe she does deserve a little rape. And there it is. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/100 "2014-04-21T21:59:05Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > It’s also why we have a justice system in the first place. Tell me more about the justice system. In Westeros. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573.md?page=6)