# Game of Thrones 4.03 "Breaker of Chains" 4/20/14 \[No spoilers\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 21, 2014, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573 "2014-04-21T01:05:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/101 "2014-04-21T22:00:09Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > And there it is. Have what? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/102 "2014-04-21T22:00:40Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > It’s not hard to believe that he’s simply overcome in the moment - I don’t know what you feel is supposed to be so out of character for him. I thought the conflicted nature of the scene, the sort of squeamish sort of rape was portrayed pretty well and makes sense. The bottom line is that we’ve seen nothing that indicates Jamie would do that. What you’re saying about his series of traumatic experiences is correct, and this scene happens at what is probably the worst part of his whole ordeal. So I think you can make a case that all of that stuff explains his behavior, but that doesn’t make it particularly sensible. > [@CarnalK](#): > > ISTM that the Hound probably draws a distinction between being thievery and a robbery too. One is sneaky the other is “honest” as far as a sell-sword goes. He didn’t even kill the guy. I agree that’s exactly how he sees it. > [@](#): > > Also, just how evil does a woman have to be before we stop caring if she was raped? I don’t think people care all that much about how she feels - well, maybe the last couple of posts prove me wrong about that. But mostly I think people are confused by the scene and by the way the director explained it, because it sounds like it did not play the way they meant it to. ---
**Author:** ![LibrarySpy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f9ae1b/32.png) [@LibrarySpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LibrarySpy)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/103 "2014-04-21T22:01:11Z")
Do we think Jamie is doing it to punish Cersei? Or is he taking what’s his? I believe the latter, but his words give evidence to the former. For Cersei it’s just another crappy, gross thing that happens to her. On the day her child died. I so don’t understand why this woman is full of hate! ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/104 "2014-04-21T22:02:56Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > And there it is. Spell it out for me. If I said “that guy deserved to be tortured” would that be a “there it is” moment for you? When people were happy Joffry was painfully murdered was that a “there it is” moment? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/105 "2014-04-21T22:08:41Z")
Okay, these images don’t show it as clearly as the actual scene does, but these images were taken immediately after she said “stop it” twice. [I will find off my rapist with a passionate kiss!](http://i.imgur.com/EMPc0lY.jpg) [This is totally the face I would make if I was getting gang raped by strangers who might kill me](http://i.imgur.com/ekPBU9G.jpg) And before you say “oh you just caught a frame where struggle looked like passion”, just watch the scene again. Seriously, none of you seemed to have paid attention during it and just took from it that she was raped. They were both high charged on emotions, both conflicted. She had confusing feelings towards him, they were right next to their dead son, the venue was a bit weird, and they were acting out a variety of strong and yet conflicting emotions. Now if you want to say it’s rape because she said no, that’s one thing, but to portray it as the sort of thing that Jamie saved Brienne from is ridiculous. There’s some weird thing going on where you guys have declared yourself Defenders of the Rape Victims or something and anyone who tries to inject any sort of nuance into it becomes He’s A Rape Advocate, ATTACK! ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/106 "2014-04-21T22:08:43Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Yeah. Maybe she does deserve a little rape. What of it? She did engineer the murder of an entire family, you know. Err, no she didn’t ? If you’re referring to the Red Wedding, that was all on Tywin. Joffrey killed Ned (against her wishes, I might add). Joffrey was also the one who ordered half the babbies in King’s Landing killed - although I suppose that was left a bit more ambiguous, but since it happened the day after Joff learned about the twincest and that his father was a skirt chaser… The cruelest thing Cersei’s ever done (outside of spiting it up verbally, natch) was having Nymeria killed out of sheer petty spite and misguided mama bear-ness. Which IIRC she apologized for to Sansa later. Oh, and defenestrating Bran, of course - but while I don’t recall the exact scene I don’t think it was even her idea. ---
**Author:** ![LibrarySpy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f9ae1b/32.png) [@LibrarySpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LibrarySpy)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/107 "2014-04-21T22:13:46Z")
**SenorBeef** , she was saying “No” and fighting against him while he was on the ground inside her. You can certainly claim that she was conflicted, but I do not see any moment where she succumbs to her desires. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/108 "2014-04-21T22:14:42Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > And I’d like to point out that this shows you’ve kiiiinda lost touch about what we are talking about. No, “we” don’t have a justice system in Westeros. I was talking about we on Earth. People in Westeros are people, people on Earth are people. Both sets behave like people and share emotions as well as emotional triggers. Was my point. But Jaime himself brings up that there’ll be an inquiry and a trial, and justice will out. So “we” also have one in Westeros. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/109 "2014-04-21T22:15:35Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Yeah. Maybe she does deserve a little rape. > [@Sherrerd](#): > > And there it is. > [@CarnalK](#): > > Spell it out for me. If I said “that guy deserved to be tortured” would that be a “there it is” moment for you? When people were happy Joffry was painfully murdered was that a “there it is” moment? I suspect you’re being a bit disingenuous, here–I suspect you actually _did_ understand the meaning of my post. But to “spell it out,” as you request: I’m not a fan of the _‘some women deserve to be raped’_ philosophy. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/110 "2014-04-21T22:18:11Z")
> [@LibrarySpy](#): > > **SenorBeef** , she was saying “No” and fighting against him while he was on the ground inside her. You can certainly claim that she was conflicted, but I do not see any moment where she succumbs to her desires. That’s true - and the director’s intent apparently was to show something that was non-consensual at first and then became consensual, and he didn’t show that very well. It was ambiguously consensual towards the beginning and definitely more rapey towards the end, so it was poorly shot if that was the message. It really depends on what the story wants the aftermath to be. If the aftermath is that Cersei hates him and thinks she was raped, I’ll accept it. If the story is that she was squicked out by the venue and they were charged with emotion and she was conflicted and doesn’t really feel it was rape, I’ll accept that too. We get no inner dialogue with the characters, and we saw that she was conflicted, so we’ll get more of an idea of the intent and reactions with the aftermath. ---
**Author:** ![LibrarySpy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f9ae1b/32.png) [@LibrarySpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LibrarySpy)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/111 "2014-04-21T22:20:13Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > It really depends on what the story wants the aftermath to be. If the aftermath is that Cersei hates him and thinks she was raped, I’ll accept it. If the story is that she was squicked out by the venue and they were charged with emotion and she was conflicted and doesn’t really feel it was rape, I’ll accept that too. I’m completely on board with that. And if **CarnalK** wants to equate rape and torture, I’m completely okay with that too. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/112 "2014-04-21T22:28:55Z")
Err, I was referring to her nuking the Stark clan when Ed warned her he was going to spill the beans about her son not being the rightful heir. ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/113 "2014-04-21T22:31:25Z")
Maybe Jaime should have pushed Cersei out of the highest window instead…maybe she’d be ok with it by the time she hit bottom. \ ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/114 "2014-04-21T22:32:19Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > That’s true - and the director’s intent apparently was to show something that was non-consensual at first and then became consensual, and he didn’t show that very well. It was ambiguously consensual towards the beginning and definitely more rapey towards the end, so it was poorly shot if that was the message. > > It really depends on what the story wants the aftermath to be. If the aftermath is that Cersei hates him and thinks she was raped, I’ll accept it. If the story is that she was squicked out by the venue and they were charged with emotion and she was conflicted and doesn’t really feel it was rape, I’ll accept that too. We get no inner dialogue with the characters, and we saw that she was conflicted, so we’ll get more of an idea of the intent and reactions with the aftermath. Well there was no rape warning at the beginning of the episode and the director himself is saying it wasn’t meant to be a rape so i assume “in story” there won’t be a rape. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/115 "2014-04-21T22:33:34Z")
> [@Yeticus\_Rex](#): > > Maybe Jaime should have pushed Cersei out of the highest window instead…maybe she’d be ok with it by the time she hit bottom. > \ Absolutely! If _one_ type of physical assault can “become consensual” (per the words of the director), then why not another? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/116 "2014-04-21T22:34:40Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > I suspect you’re being a bit disingenuous, here–I suspect you actually _did_ understand the meaning of my post. > > But to “spell it out,” as you request: I’m not a fan of the _‘some women deserve to be raped’_ philosophy. Not remotely disingenuous. We are talking about a fantasy world where war, murder and torture are commonplace. So unless you came down on people rejoicing in Joffery’s murder or whathisname’s torture I’m a little bemused by your drawing the line at rape. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/117 "2014-04-21T22:39:11Z")
Jaime feels he is actually beyond redemption, there is no way he will ever be a “noble knight”. No matter what he does he will always be the Kingslayer. And without condoning it, my interpretation of Jaime’s actions is simply she still demands something of him, kill Tyrion, something as ignoble as kingslaying. She is reminding him of his son. She rejects him when he needs her, but when she needs him she orders him around. So he decides to force himself on her. This is not an excuse, I find it deplorable behavior, but Jaime is not a good guy, as much as we wanted him to be. ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/118 "2014-04-21T22:43:05Z")
I’m of the opinion that the intent of the writer and director that it was not meant to be rape. Cersei was meant to protest about the timing and location, and then give in, and be consensual. I also think that due to the direction and editing, her consent gets largely lost. You can see bits of it, as pointed out in the screenshots above, but when you muffle that and still have her saying “Stop”, what’s actually presented on screen is rape, and it’s not really ambiguous in its final form. So I’m choosing to believe that we have is a bit of an unreliable narrator, because that’s the only way subsequent events are going to be consistent with this episode. (Not a spoiler, just my assumption that future episodes will not treat this as a rape from either Jaime or Cersei’s POV.) ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/119 "2014-04-21T22:47:42Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Err, I was referring to her nuking the Stark clan when Ed warned her he was going to spill the beans about her son not being the rightful heir. Well, Ned _was_ going to ruin her life and that of her children forever. I’m not saying she was morally justified to do what she did, but it’s not like she did it for the evulz. From her p.o.v. it was very much self-defence… and \s’all in the Game, dawg. \. But I did forget about Jon Arryn, which she very probably had poisoned for the same reason. ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/120 "2014-04-21T22:52:03Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Well, Ned _was_ going to ruin her life and that of her children forever. I’m not saying she was morally justified to do what she did, but it’s not like she did it for the evulz. From her p.o.v. it was very much self-defence… and \s’all in the Game, dawg. \. > > But I did forget about Jon Arryn, which she very probably had poisoned for the same reason. You also forgot about her husband, the King. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573.md?page=7)