# Game of Thrones 4.03 "Breaker of Chains" 4/20/14 \[No spoilers\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 21, 2014, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573 "2014-04-21T01:05:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/141 "2014-04-22T00:09:08Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Ned said as much and it’s why he have her the chance to glee before he told Robert. Is this where she gets the chance to watch Oberyn and Loras sing Baby It’s Cold Outside or behead Ned? She chose wisely. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/142 "2014-04-22T00:12:55Z")
> [@obfusciatrist](#): > > No it isn’t. And I don’t really bad an eye at Jamie raping her. It’s a disappointing turn for his character, but if that’s where they want to go with him, then fine. > > What I bat an eye at, however, is that apparently the maker of the show does not think that was rape. Therefore it is completely irrelevant as to whether the rape was “in character” for Jamie since the people making the show didn’t think it was rape and therefore didn’t write the show as if it were rape. > > So again, my eye batting is a) that there exists real people in our real world who can have intentionally showed us what was shown last night and not think it was a rape and b) we can expect that the writing from this point on will be somewhat disjointed from our experience of the show because of a. If they, in not thinking it was rape, continue on down the path of Jamie’s rehabilitation without any acknowledgment of what he’s just done, then that could be a problem. > > But no, while horrible, rape is not necessarily the worst thing that could happen. And no, not all rapes are equal in their violence or horribleness (though I think it dangerous territory for a third party to try and define for the person raped just how horrible it was and where they should be placing it on that spectrum). Very well-said. I agree with all of this. It should be simple. The female character said “no” (repeatedly) while the male character knocked her over, ripped her clothes, and entered her. The fact that this is being excused all over the place in this thread is very telling. A quick summary of all the excuses so far (I think–I may have missed a few) follow: [ul] [li]It’s only fictional characters so it’s not rape! (As if fictional characters have no human characteristics, and their actions have no connection or relationship to human actions. If that were true, why would we bother watching?);[/li][li]He was emotional so it’s not rape because being emotional justifies forcible assault; [/li][li]He had blue balls so it’s not rape because blue balls justify forcible assault;[/li][li]He had a previous relationship with her and we all know that once a man has been with a woman, he’s entitled to free access no matter what her opinion of the matter;[/li][li]She kissed him, so her repeated “no” is irrelevant: a kiss is an agreement to intercourse;[/li][li]Rape isn’t as bad as other things, so it’s not rape (that one is truly a triumph of logic);[/li][li]Raping can’t be criticised unless the person doing the criticising has opinions X and Y on torture and murder (another triumph of logic);[/li][li]People posting in this thread have posted words that are unjustified in their tone, and that means that forcible sexual assault is okay (yet another);[/li][li]And of course the capper: Some women deserve to be raped.[/li][/ul] All in all, a shining moment for fans of GoT. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/143 "2014-04-22T00:16:15Z")
So you are just going to dodge the question of whether people deserve to be tortured. You can go ahead and feel more righteous than me if it makes you feel good. I’ll sleep fine tonight. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/144 "2014-04-22T00:17:03Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > All in all, a shining moment for fans of GoT. Really? You think the fans of GoT should feel shame over this conversation? ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/145 "2014-04-22T00:18:18Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > [ul] > [li]And of course the capper: Some women deserve to be raped.[/li][/ul] In your opinion, do some people deserve to be tortured, or do some people deserve to be killed? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/146 "2014-04-22T00:20:35Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > Really? You think the fans of GoT should feel shame over this conversation? Hey you’re a girl! You’re supposed to be on his side! Rape is bad, mmmkay? ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/147 "2014-04-22T00:23:21Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > So you are just going to dodge the question of whether people deserve to be tortured. You can go ahead and feel more righteous than me if it makes you feel good. I’ll sleep fine tonight. Your reasoning here is mystifying. I stated "I’m not a fan of the _'some women deserve to be raped_’ philosophy. Your immediate response was this question about whether people deserve to be tortured. What’s the connection in your mind? What do you believe to be the relevance? What difference does a person’s opinion on torture make to the legitimacy of their stated belief about whether or not some women deserve to be raped? I am asking in all sincerity; your question is baffling. ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/148 "2014-04-22T00:26:01Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Arya and the Hound had an interesting exchange about the First Sword of Bravos; I wonder if they will end up in Bravos? I thought it was Davos and Shireen that talked about the First Sword? Arya and the Hound were talking about him joining a sellsword company (Second Sons, I think). ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/149 "2014-04-22T00:28:06Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > Really? You think the fans of GoT should feel shame over this conversation? Only those defending or excusing or re-defining sexual assault. Though it _would_ make an interesting survey. Of all those who self-identify as fans of the books and/or of the show, what percentage adhere to the beliefs “some women deserve to be raped” or to various “well, it’s understandable because…” rationalizations? A proper study would run the numbers for fans of other shows/books, too. For example would the results be different for fans of, say, _Breaking Bad_? For Harry Potter fans? For Twilight fans? Etc., etc. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/150 "2014-04-22T00:31:43Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Your reasoning here is mystifying. I stated "I’m not a fan of the _'some women deserve to be raped_’ philosophy. Your immediate response was this question about whether people deserve to be tortured. > > What’s the connection in your mind? What do you believe to be the relevance? What difference does a person’s opinion on torture make to the legitimacy of their stated belief about whether or not some women deserve to be raped? > > I am asking in all sincerity; your question is baffling. Because rape is a form of torture. Duh. My first viewing of the scene matches SenorBeef’s analysis. Cersei kissed him first, then kissed him again in the middle of her "no"s while they were still standing, then kissed him again in the middle of more "no"s when they were sitting on the ground. In other words, throughout the scene, Cersei continued actively kissing him. It appears that the director tried to make the "no"s more about the location than the act, but I agree that the director did a poor job. I think he was going for more of a “no, I’m late for work” kind of situation, where the non-consent is based on circumstances, not lack of desire. After reading here that the director didn’t intend for it to be perceived as rape – which, really, go back to directing school – I can only conclude that Cersei and Jaime have previously indulged in rape-fantasy sex games during their relationship. The outrage in this thread has strained my eyes a bit from all the rolling. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/151 "2014-04-22T00:33:30Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > What’s the connection in your mind? What do you believe to be the relevance? What difference does a person’s opinion on torture make to the legitimacy of their stated belief about whether or not some women deserve to be raped? If someone believes that “some people deserve to be tortured” and also believes “no one deserves to be raped” then they are being either disingenuous, or deluded. I can’t see a rational reason to hold both the above views. Why aren’t you unequivocally stating that “no one deserves to be tortured”? Why are you dodging the question? ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/152 "2014-04-22T00:36:46Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > All in all, a shining moment for fans of GoT. You do realize that there’s a difference between saying “this was a believable action for the fictional character of Jaime to take, because (X)” and “it was OK for Jaime to this because (x)” don’t you? No one is arguing that what Jaime did was hunky dory. People are arguing that it was consistent with his character as previously presented. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/153 "2014-04-22T00:37:34Z")
Considering how much more likely the average woman is to be raped than people are to be murdered, tortured, or thrown out windows I find many arguments put forth as to why people shouldn’t be so bothered by the scene quite ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/154 "2014-04-22T00:39:12Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Your reasoning here is mystifying. I stated "I’m not a fan of the _'some women deserve to be raped_’ philosophy. Your immediate response was this question about whether people deserve to be tortured. > > What’s the connection in your mind? What do you believe to be the relevance? What difference does a person’s opinion on torture make to the legitimacy of their stated belief about whether or not some women deserve to be raped? > > I am asking in all sincerity; your question is baffling. As Ellis Dee said, I find rape and torture to be pretty equivalent. That you don’t is what’s fucking mystifying to me quite frankly. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/155 "2014-04-22T00:41:47Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Considering how much more likely the average woman is to be raped than people are to be murdered, tortured, or thrown out windows I find many arguments put forth as to why people shouldn’t be so bothered by the scene quite ridiculous. Not on this show. You remember we’re talking about a fantasy show right? ---
**Author:** ![Morbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morbo/32/389_2.png) [@Morbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morbo)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/156 "2014-04-22T00:41:52Z")
Jeez, I sure do miss those innocent times when GoT threads were derailed by discussions of what “Part Dragon” means, instead of being derailed by rape-shaming. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/157 "2014-04-22T00:42:18Z")
> [@HazelNutCoffee](#): > > I thought it was Davos and Shireen that talked about the First Sword? Arya and the Hound were talking about him joining a sellsword company (Second Sons, I think). You are right, I knew there were two places that Bravos came up. Davos said he fought a First Sword. Clegane said he might go to Bravos, and Arya said she had friends there. A lot of Bravos references, must presage coming attractions. ---
**Author:** ![Leonard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a6a055/32.png) [@Leonard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leonard)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/158 "2014-04-22T00:45:20Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > It’s only fictional characters so it’s not rape! (As if fictional characters have no human characteristics, and their actions have no connection or relationship to human actions. If that were true, why would we bother watching?) Nope, it was clearly a depiction of rape. I just don’t see any reason to get worried about it when zero actual rapes occurred. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/159 "2014-04-22T00:46:38Z")
Speaking of sellswords, wasn’t Daarios mercenary company cavalry? cause apparently he doesn’t like fighting on horses anymore. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573/160 "2014-04-22T00:48:58Z")
> [@HazelNutCoffee](#): > > I thought it was Davos and Shireen that talked about the First Sword? Arya and the Hound were talking about him joining a sellsword company (Second Sons, I think). Yeah. I also thought that when Arya said she knew someone in Bravos she was talking about Joquin (sp?). I figured it’s a pretty sure thing that her fencing instructor died with his wooden sword against the kingsguard off-screen. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-03-breaker-of-chains-4-20-14-no-spoilers/686573.md?page=9)