# Game of Thrones 4.04 "Oathkeeper" 4/27/14 \[No Spoilers\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 28, 2014, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153 "2014-04-28T02:38:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2014, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153/181 "2014-04-29T20:43:40Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > The two quotes you supplied are a far cry from “OMG WHY YOU GUYS ARE SO UPSET!!1!” It’s the SDMB equivalent. So far, nobody here has displayed the least bit of upset-ness. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2014, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153/182 "2014-04-29T20:50:17Z")
> [@BlackKnight](#): > > Are depictions of or references to racism or colonialism offensive? When they’re portrayed as a positive, a that’s-as-should-be or a well-earned reward ? You bet. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2014, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153/183 "2014-04-29T21:07:35Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > When they’re portrayed as a positive, a that’s-as-should-be or a well-earned reward ? You bet. Or when we’re supposed to view the colonizer as a pure-hearted heroine. And in case I didn’t emphasize this enough, I don’t think they were trying to send any sort of message about race here. They worked with what they had in terms of the look of the character and the local extras, but just didn’t notice how it looked. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2014, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153/184 "2014-04-29T21:10:15Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > She’s a white outsider, and they’re a mass of undifferentiated dark folks worshipping her as a god. The image of unwashed masses of dark skinned people worshipping this one white outsider did look a little racist So f\*ing what? The show also shows men in power (Kings & Lords) and women being subservient to them, and having to obey them. Sexist! How dare the author! Why didn’t he make a universe where women were equal to men, and were not treated as second-class, and did not come after all males in the order in which they inherit the throne? You guys seem to look at this world with so many inequalities, and so much violence and shit happening, and focus on the minutest of things to get upset about. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2014, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153/185 "2014-04-29T21:14:29Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > It’s the SDMB equivalent. So far, nobody here has displayed the least bit of upset-ness. Do you even read your own posts? [QUOTE=Marley23 from a couple pages ago] I realize they’re filming in North Africa and hiring local extras, but\*\* it does make me uncomfortable.\*\* [/QUOTE] (Emphasis mine) So, maybe upset and uncomfortable are not synonyms, but seeing a scene that makes you uncomfortable, and uncomfortable enough to complain about it, does seem to indicate that you were bothered by it, which is basically what people mean when they say you are upset by it. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2014, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153/186 "2014-04-29T21:14:39Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > So f\*ing what? > > The show also shows men in power (Kings & Lords) and women being subservient to them, and having to obey them. Sexist! > > How dare the author! Why didn’t he make a universe where women were equal to men, and were not treated as second-class, and did not come after all males in the order in which they inherit the throne? But a) the women don’t like that one bit, and are portrayed as having agency regardless and b) it’s not portrayed as a positive aspect of Westeros society, c) the patriarchy in place is not supposed to be seen as “the good guys”, quite the opposite. And so on. Try again. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2014, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153/187 "2014-04-29T21:27:53Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > But a) the women don’t like that one bit, and are portrayed as having agency regardless and b) it’s not portrayed as a positive aspect of Westeros society, c) the patriarchy in place is not supposed to be seen as “the good guys”, quite the opposite. And so on. Sure, whatever makes you comfortable supporting this terrible, sexist, show. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2014, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153/188 "2014-04-29T21:33:06Z")
Hey **Ellis Dee**. 😉 > [@Polerius](#): > > So f\*ing what? So f\*ing nothing. I watched a thing on TV and said what I thought about a scene. That’s pretty much how these threads go. > [@](#): > > The show also shows men in power (Kings & Lords) and women being subservient to them, and having to obey them. Sexist! Yes, the treatment of women in Essos and Westeros is often sexist. But the sexists are usually made to look horrible, especially when they are being really terrible as opposed to when they’re just not fully modern. That’s not the case with Danaerys in general and in this scene. > [@](#): > > You guys seem to look at this world with so many inequalities, and so much violence and shit happening, and focus on the minutest of things to get upset about. Two in a row: here’s “upset” again, and here’s another post that insists people have to look at fiction in a severely limited way. That condescends to readers and to fiction. And in order to make this sound like a powerful moral argument instead of a silly whine, you have to say multiple ridiculous things in a row. The fact that I can watch a TV show and have a thought about what I’m seeing (and spend a couple of minutes discussing that thought) doesn’t imply anger and says nothing about my engagement with the rest of the world. > [@Polerius](#): > > So, maybe upset and uncomfortable are not synonyms There’s no maybe here. They mean different things, and I wouldn’t use one word if I meant the other. The scene didn’t upset me. I thought it was a powerful moment and a great end to the season, and I also thought “that didn’t look right.” ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2014, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153/189 "2014-04-29T21:33:50Z")
**Polerius** , if you still don’t get how the two do not equate, and since you chose the sarcastic cry of “Sexism !” as your weapon of choice, picture this scene : You favourite character (in my mind’s eye, this scene plays with Jon for irony, but it could be Bronn, Tyrion… Hodor…) bursts into Littlefinger’s brothel in King’s Landing. HERO : I say, this institutional degradation of women is fucked up ! Have at thee, evil goons ! - Hero proceeds to trounce Littlefinger’s attendants, then dole out kharmic justice on the Creepster himself \* HERO : There ! You nameless sluts are now free ! WHORES’ CHORUS : FAAAATHER ! FAAATHER ! FAAATHER ! Let us now reward you properly _wink wink_ for we are but whores, GREAT FAAATHER ! Still don’t see a single problem whatsoever ? Your eyebrow doesn’t even twitch slightly upwards for a second, there ? ---
**Author:** ![Death\_of\_Rats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Death\_of\_Rats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Death_of_Rats)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2014, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153/190 "2014-04-29T21:49:35Z")
That depends, is he know throughout the land as the Father of Dragons? 'Cuase that is wht they are refering to when they call her Mother. She is not thier mother, she is the Mother of Dragons. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2014, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153/191 "2014-04-29T21:53:12Z")
For you folks that claim the show is not sexist, how do you feel about all the gratuitous nudity, featuring all the naked women, that are there primarily for the titillation of the male audience? Also, are the men who go to brothels and exploit these women portrayed as bad? No. Overall, if anyone is “uncomfortable” about the Daenerys “colonialist” scenes, and they consider themselves to be a progressive person, they should also be “uncomfortable” with all these scenes that, indirectly, objectify women and portray them as sex objects. FWIW, I don’t care about any of the above. The show is such a violent & unethical morass that getting “uncomfortable” about these things is ludicrous. ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2014, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153/192 "2014-04-29T21:53:55Z")
I’m not seeing Dany being worshipped as a god by the people she and her armies are setting free. She’s being hailed as a liberator. The adulation is going to her head and will likely come back and bite her in the ass, like what almost happened in Qarth and like what’s happened throughout history with imperalists and colonizers. The show’s using extras from the areas where they’re filming. Those extras aren’t as white as Dany. Nobody on the show is as white as Dany. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2014, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153/193 "2014-04-29T21:57:09Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > For you folks that claim the show is not sexist Who claimed it wasn’t ? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2014, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153/194 "2014-04-29T22:19:40Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > For you folks that claim the show is not sexist I don’t think anybody said that either. We’re saying that a depiction of sexist behavior is not the same as actual sexism on the part of the show. That ought to be obvious to everybody, but for some reason that distinction immediately disappears when we start talking about an issue like this. The same thing happened when people were talking about the scene in the sept last week. > [@](#): > > how do you feel about all the gratuitous nudity, featuring all the naked women, that are there primarily for the titillation of the male audience? I think it’s par for the course for HBO. Yes, it objectifies women. > [@](#): > > Also, are the men who go to brothels and exploit these women portrayed as bad? No. There’s a lot of complicated debate around individual freedom and sex workers, and I’ve never really bothered with the subject. But not all of the prostitutes are female, and we don’t really know how they are being treated. > [@](#): > > FWIW, I don’t care about any of the above. How enlightened, I guess? > [@](#): > > The show is such a violent & unethical morass that getting “uncomfortable” about these things is ludicrous. Let me see if I follow you: the show is very violent and most of the characters are ethically compromised, or at least some of the situations are very complicated. So if fans talk about the ethics of what’s happening… that’s ludicrous? How do you get from ‘these characters and violent and often unethical’ to ‘it’s dumb to talk about the ethics of what’s happening?’ Isn’t the fact that it’s unethical or complex the exact reason it’s interesting to talk about? > [@AuntiePam](#): > > I’m not seeing Dany being worshipped as a god by the people she and her armies are setting free. She’s being hailed as a liberator. Did you watch the scene again? It’s not the only possible interpretation, but I think the overtones are hard to miss. For that matter everybody’s calling her “mother.” ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2014, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153/195 "2014-04-29T22:29:18Z")
> [@Death\_of\_Rats](#): > > That depends, is he know throughout the land as the Father of Dragons? 'Cuase that is wht they are refering to when they call her Mother. She is not thier mother, she is the Mother of Dragons. Honestly, that’s not quite clear. If that was the case, they would have been chanting “Mhysa Drakarys” or somesuch (what’s the genitive of drakarys ? :p). The fact that they’re calling her “Mother” period implies that, while it might also be a nod to her MoD title (heh), they do also look up to her as their symbolic mother, i.e. loving and beloved figure, commands obedience through respect, knows best etc… ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2014, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153/196 "2014-04-29T23:31:00Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > Tyrion says that Mace Tyrell will vote however Tywin wants him too. But he was still interested in who the third judge was, which makes me think it has to be unanimous. I’m confused; is Tyrion getting an actual trial or will it be a trial by combat like at the Eyrie? If it’s the latter what role to the judges actually serve and why are there 3 of them? > [@Marley23](#): > > …There’s a lot of complicated debate around individual freedom and sex workers, and I’ve never really bothered with the subject. But not all of the prostitutes are female, and we don’t really know how they are being treated… True, but the one male prostitute we’ve seen in the show has a lot higher status than any of the females and is running the brothel absent Littlefinger. He’s also hot has hell and shown his cock in 2 out of the 3 episodes he’s been. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2014, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153/197 "2014-04-29T23:35:39Z")
You don’t “get” a trial by combat, you have to request one. Otherwise you get a regular trial. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2014, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153/198 "2014-04-29T23:45:41Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > I’m confused; is Tyrion getting an actual trial or will it be a trial by combat like at the Eyrie? If it’s the latter what role to the judges actually serve and why are there 3 of them? He’s getting the same thing : an actual trial. With, presumably, a similarly pre-set outcome. At the Eyrie he chose to trump the verdict of his sham trial by requesting a trial by combat instead (this has historical precedents, BTW). But he did so because a) he trusted nobody on the face of the Earth could beat Jaime and b) waiting for Jaime to arrive would have bought him more time regardless, which was preferable to an immediate lesson in amateur aeronautics. Bronn agreeing to fight for him, and then actually winning, was dumb luck. Which, I suppose, is par for the course and perfectly legit if you buy the religio-legal underpinnings of trials by combat in the first place 🙂 He could do it again I suppose, but then this time around there’s no shortage of superb swordfighters in the opposite corner. His preferred ace in the hole lost his good hand and while Bronn is certainly a deft hand at murder would he still shine against the likes of Ilyn Payne, Loras Tyrell or The Mountain ? ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2014, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153/199 "2014-04-29T23:58:29Z")
You don’t “get” a trial by combat, you have to request one. Otherwise you get a regular trial. ---
**Author:** ![ctnguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@ctnguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ctnguy)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153/200 "2014-04-30T00:06:33Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > I’m confused; is Tyrion getting an actual trial or will it be a trial by combat like at the Eyrie? If it’s the latter what role to the judges actually serve and why are there 3 of them? I think it’s an actual trial. If you think back to the Eyrie, Tyrion initially demands a trial. Then crazy-lady Lysa points out that the judge would be her son, who had already been blathering about wanting to see Tyrion “fly”. Only then did he demand a trial by combat. So there is definitely some kind of trial other than trial-by-combat in Westeros. As for the three judges, I have some theories. Clearly in the North and in the Vale the Lord Paramount judges on his own; but maybe in King’s Landing they use multiple judges since there are more lordly types around to do the judging. Or maybe regicide is considered so serious that there have to be more judges. Or maybe Tywin would normally judge on his own as Hand of the King, but he’s bringing in other judges because the fact that his son is the accused creates a conflict of interest. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153.md?page=11)