# Game of Thrones 4.04 "Oathkeeper" 4/27/14 \[No Spoilers\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 28, 2014, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153 "2014-04-28T02:38:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153/221 "2014-04-30T19:44:24Z")
> [@Jack\_Burden](#): > > but Jaime was a battle-hardened veteran; in Season 1 one of the Stark men talks about fighting beside him during the Greyjoy Rebellion and later on Tywin tells Tyrion that Jaime has been “covering himself in glory” fighting against Robb Stark. In fact, Robb’s successful battle plan was springing a trap to capture Jaime with overwhelming numbers so that his army could stand a chance of winning. Correction, Jamie was covering himself in glory fighting Edmure Tully. Robb showed up and captured him. [And he took down ten men before they managed to capture him.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEF5cCzpAB4) That’s better than we’ve seen out of anyone else in the show so far, even if it wasn’t directly shown. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153/222 "2014-04-30T20:33:33Z")
In other news, am I the only one who laughed out loud when they saw the [Sea Monkey King](https://www.google.com/search?q=sea+monkeys&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=aF1hU-SuNoGA8gX4hIGgCA&sqi=2&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ&biw=1351&bih=710#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=3kYwmKkmu_H9CM%253A%3Bduo5t4wyyx4JcM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fsuperradnow.files.wordpress.com%252F2011%252F07%252Fseamonkey-737221.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fsuperradnow.wordpress.com%252Ftag%252Fsea-monkeys%252F%3B496%3B419)? ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153/223 "2014-04-30T21:00:36Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Correction, Jamie was covering himself in glory fighting Edmure Tully. Robb showed up and captured him. [And he took down ten men before they managed to capture him.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEF5cCzpAB4) That’s better than we’ve seen out of anyone else in the show so far, even if it wasn’t directly shown. Now, see, that’s the kind of thing that you’d think would go in the book. ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_Prize](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@Sir\_Prize](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_Prize)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153/224 "2014-04-30T21:07:10Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Ned mocks his shiny jousting armor, with the implication that Jaime’s fighting skills are more show than skill. > > That was my only impression of his fighting up until Joffrey pointed out that Jaime is 40 years old and has no pages of consequence in the “deeds of the great knights” book. He has multiple blank pages, no doubt earmarked decades ago when his youth showed great promise as a fighter, and then 19 years go by before Robb captures him and…nothing. Jamie was too good for anyone to touch his armor. That he never did anything of note after killing the king may be more a matter of attitude and circumstance rather than lake of skill. Were there any wars to fight between the time Robert took the throne and the war of five kings? Was Robert willing to let Jamie participate in any opportunities for glory that presented themselves? Did anyone try to assassinate Robert before Circei? Did the man in charge of the book have something against writing acheivements for a king slayer? ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153/225 "2014-04-30T22:11:22Z")
> [@Sir\_Prize](#): > > Jamie was too good for anyone to touch his armor. > > That he never did anything of note after killing the king may be more a matter of attitude and circumstance rather than lake of skill. Were there any wars to fight between the time Robert took the throne and the war of five kings? Was Robert willing to let Jamie participate in any opportunities for glory that presented themselves? Did anyone try to assassinate Robert before Circei? Did the man in charge of the book have something against writing acheivements for a king slayer? Balon Greyjoy had a rebellion after Robert won his throne. In season 1 Jory talks to Jaime about how they fought together at Pyke. The man in charge of the book for most of Jaime’s career was Barristan Selmy, who is now with Dany. They seemed to have a friendly relationship based on a short conversation about their first kills. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153/226 "2014-04-30T22:48:27Z")
Also Jaime strikes me as someone who, while arrogant, isn’t deluded; same for Tywin. He says he doesn’t have to be as good as he used to be as long as he’s better than everyone else. That implies that back when he had two hands he was WAY better than everyone else, and the fact that Tywin doesn’t snicker or mock him implies that Tywin agrees. Even adjusting for ego, and changing “everyone else” to “everyone else aside from Ser Barristan and a few of the absolute most deadly warriors ever”, I think there’s overwhelming evidence that Jaime is an absolutely world-class fighter. I think there’s also a conversation back in season 1 when he offhandedly comments that there are maybe 2 or 3 people in the kingdom who could give him a challenge… ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153/227 "2014-05-01T00:08:31Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > If they only had white people then you’d get complaints that there’s not enough diversity. Having Daenrys be white and her freed slaves be black is viewed as racist (or colonialist, or whatever) by people. But if they switched it up and had her be black and the freed slaves be white people would probably complain about that too. > > There’s no winning when people are so worked up about race that they view everything through that prism where they take offense. The best thing the producers can do is just ignore the haters and write the best episodes they can. How about (and I know this is a crrrrazy thing to suggest) not segregating sides based on skin colour ?! You may think I’m a dreamer, but I’m not the only one, etc… Yunkai was a city based on an economy of sex slavery. They raided and bought people from all over, then trained and sold them as whores. One expects them not to specialize in any ethnicity. In fact, one knows they don’t : during the scene where the three captains of the mercenary cavalry band discuss who should kill Daenerys, the head honcho (forget his name offhand, you know the guy. Fastest tongue in the West ? :p) is playing with a pretty young thing who’s definitely not black, and a Yunkai slave. Vaguely Dothraki-looking. But when Dany frees the city, it’s a see of black worshipping her like zombies. The scene would not have been on anyone’s White Guiltdar had the crowd been more diverse. [QUOTE=Marley23] And the way I remember their fight, Jaime is surprised at how good Ned is. Which doesn’t mean Ned would’ve won a fair fight, but it says something for Ned at that point. [/QUOTE] Well, there’s the fact that while “When I come for a man, I don’t want him to know what I can do” is a cool badass line to justify never taking part in jousts, it could also have been bluster to hide the fact that he’s just not very good. Jaime does joust, so does the Mountain, so did Robert before he was King. It doesn’t seem to prevent them from being good at what they do, and what they do… oh, you know that one ? 🙂 [QUOTE=SirPrize] Did the man in charge of the book have something against writing acheivements for a king slayer? [/QUOTE] I think that has a lot to do with it. Jaime says the head of the king’s guard is responsible for writing deeds into the book, and until recently that was Barristan Selmy - a man not particularly noted for the flexibility of his morals. [QUOTE=SenorBeef] While they are clearly trained to work in groups, I suspect that they’re trained to fight as individuals too. I doubt Yunkai only sells them in groups of 50+, they probably sell a few at a time to rich guys who want a completely reliable household guard, and that requires that they be capable individual fighters. [/QUOTE] That’s a good point. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153/228 "2014-05-01T00:22:58Z")
Of course it’s hard to judge who is really good when we only see a few guys fight more than once\*. But I didn’t think Ned was bluffing - although his refusal to joust is in keeping with his joyless nature. We know he fought alongside Robert and lived, which says something, anyway. If Jaime is that good and he is at least momentarily impressed with Ned, I think Ned is good. \*I wonder if Westeros has SABERmetrics fans who use advanced stats to analyze swordsmen. Of course small sample size is a serious problem in a fight where the loser usually gets killed. ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153/229 "2014-05-01T00:36:38Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > The man in charge of the book for most of Jaime’s career was Barristan Selmy, who is now with Dany. They seemed to have a friendly relationship based on a short conversation about their first kills. That scene made me believe that Selmy and Jamie are respectful and friendly to each other. I had been thinking that the bit with the book implied that the great Knights in Westeros had full careers before joining the Kingsguard or at least had been utilized by their King for righteous “knightly” duties and “great deeds.” Jamie had basically wasted his skills and possibly his life by staying in Kingslanding under Robert and to be near his lover/sister. But now thinking about it…I can’t recall if this is answered in the show–but Jamie joined the Kingsguard at a young age under the Mad King. Did he do this to try to get away from Cersei? Also… it just sort of hit me how The Nightswatch and the Kingsguard are fairly similar organizations. ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_Prize](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@Sir\_Prize](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_Prize)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153/230 "2014-05-01T01:48:33Z")
> [@Push\_You\_Down](#): > > Jamie had basically wasted his skills and possibly his life by staying in Kingslanding under Robert and to be near his lover/sister. That was an important undercurrent of that scene. Jamie had always had what it takes to fill pages in that book but never did. Now it is probably too late. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153/231 "2014-05-01T01:54:42Z")
> [@Push\_You\_Down](#): > > But now thinking about it…I can’t recall if this is answered in the show–but Jamie joined the Kingsguard at a young age under the Mad King. Did he do this to try to get away from Cersei? I’m pretty sure it was stated in the show that he joined the kingsguard in order to follow Cersei even though at the time Cersei was pretty happy at the prospect of marrying Robert. Last night it was revealed that he joined when he was 16 which would put him at about 30-32ish now. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153/232 "2014-05-01T02:11:52Z")
Joffrey said he was 40, and he joined under the mad king. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Burden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/958977/32.png) [@Jack\_Burden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Burden)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153/233 "2014-05-01T03:29:35Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Of course it’s hard to judge who is really good when we only see a few guys fight more than once\*. But I didn’t think Ned was bluffing - although his refusal to joust is in keeping with his joyless nature. We know he fought alongside Robert and lived, which says something, anyway. If Jaime is that good and he is at least momentarily impressed with Ned, I think Ned is. I’m thinking Ned’s reluctance to enter jousts and tournaments has less to do with bluffing or his joyless nature (what?) than with his unwillingness to travel to the places where such events are held. Not a whole lot of time for such things in the North when you’re scratching out a living and Winter is Coming. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153/234 "2014-05-01T05:07:55Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Of course it’s hard to judge who is really good when we only see a few guys fight more than once\*. But I didn’t think Ned was bluffing - although his refusal to joust is in keeping with his joyless nature. We know he fought alongside Robert and lived, which says something, anyway. If Jaime is that good and he is at least momentarily impressed with Ned, I think Ned is good. Oh no, I meant that while Ned could absolutely back up his words, it’s understandable that Jaime would doubt Ned’s abilities based on the fact that he never took part in tournaments and explained why with bravado that could well have been empty. Hence why Jaime seemed a bit surprised (pleasantly so) that Ned could actually stand up to him in a duel. > [@](#): > > \*I wonder if Westeros has SABERmetrics fans who use advanced stats to analyze swordsmen. Of course small sample size is a serious problem in a fight where the loser usually gets killed. I absolutely expect the bruisers of Westeros to sperg as hard about their favoured swordsmen as comic book fans do on Earth :). Remember, there was an opener back in season… 2, I think ? where a couple of Lannister soldiers on night time guard duty shoot the shit about who could take whom in a fight. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153/235 "2014-05-01T11:54:45Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Now, see, that’s the kind of thing that you’d think would go in the book. The book is written by the Captain of the King’s Guard. Which is Jaime at the moment. His angst isn’t that he hasn’t done a bunch of impressive killing - it’s that he hasn’t done a bunch of honorable killing. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153/236 "2014-05-01T15:03:00Z")
> [@Jack\_Burden](#): > > I’m thinking Ned’s reluctance to enter jousts and tournaments has less to do with bluffing or his joyless nature (what?) than with his unwillingness to travel to the places where such events are held. Not a whole lot of time for such things in the North when you’re scratching out a living and Winter is Coming. The travel thing may be a fair point, but the Starks rule the North. I doubt they are scratching out a living. And as far as Ned’s personality goes- not to speak ill of the dead, but he was not exactly a fun guy. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153/237 "2014-05-01T16:48:40Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Now, see, that’s the kind of thing that you’d think would go in the book. Not quite sure what that means. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153/238 "2014-05-01T16:52:07Z")
He means the fact that Jaime killed 10 men trying to capture him is kind of heroic exploit, or at least a testament to his skill, and might belong in that book. The point about Jaime wasting his abilities is a good one, and there was a scene earlier this season that suggests Tywin feels the same way about that. ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153/239 "2014-05-01T17:02:48Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > He means the fact that Jaime killed 10 men trying to capture him is kind of heroic exploit, or at least a testament to his skill, and might belong in that book. The point about Jaime wasting his abilities is a good one, and there was a scene earlier this season that suggests Tywin feels the same way about that. He killed ten men… and then was captured anyway and held prisoner for over a year? NOT something that goes in the big book! ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153/240 "2014-05-01T17:20:28Z")
Well the book is not just for “heroic” exploits, i mean they put that he killed the last king in there. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153.md?page=13)