# Game of Thrones 4.04 "Oathkeeper" 4/27/14 \[No Spoilers\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 28, 2014, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153 "2014-04-28T02:38:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Furious\_Marmot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dfb087/32.png) [@Furious\_Marmot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Furious_Marmot)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153/41 "2014-04-28T15:14:42Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > … Locke going as far as joining the nightswatch and taking the oath seems a bit excessive. Eh, it’s just some words. He’ll slink off home to his reward (1000 acres and a holdfast) once the job is done. > [@DigitalC](#): > > Either the same way Summer did or he was simply already locked up since the nighstwatch was camped there in the first place. I think the last time we saw Ghost was near the Fist of the First Men, when he wandered off and Quorin said something about it. Maybe he wandered back to Crasters and, being unafraid of the guys there, got caught like Summer. ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153/42 "2014-04-28T15:14:58Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Either the same way Summer did or he was simply already locked up since the nighstwatch was camped there in the first place. Ghost wandered off while Jon was capturing/getting captured by Ygritte. Which means Ghost wasn’t locked up at Craster’s because the fall of Craster happened after Jon went missing. The Night’s Watch wasn’t camped out at Craster’s, they stopped in there during their return from further north. So, Ghost most likely was captured the same way as Summer; fell into a trap. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153/43 "2014-04-28T15:17:17Z")
> [@Sam\_Lowry](#): > > But that’s still significant for him. It seems to me that the old Jaime wouldn’t have cared about a pact to a dead woman, or would have made just the smallest effort maybe. Parting with a Valyrian steel sword, even if he knows he can’t properly use it, seems like a big deal. It’s absolutely significant. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153/44 "2014-04-28T15:20:42Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Locke going as far as joining the nightswatch and taking the oath seems a bit excessive. Not that it would matter to Locke or the Boltons, but I’m fairly certain Locke hasn’t taken the oath yet. When he volunteered for the Craster Disaster mission, something was said about taking a “recruit” (as opposed to a Brother), and Jon looked at the Commander to make sure it was okay to accept Locke’s offer. Seems like there’s a training period before they officially take the oath - can’t remember specifically - but I don’t think Locke has become a full-fledged Brother yet. ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153/45 "2014-04-28T15:23:04Z")
> [@MeanJoe](#): > > I’m quite a bit surprised that Jaime would give Brienne his sword. I can see him sending her to find Sansa and protect her but with his Valerian sword?? Well, remember the scene where Tywin gave him the sword? To Tywin, it’s a really big honking deal that the Lannisters finally have a Valyrian sword to call their own, like all the great houses do. And then he basically disowned Jaime, and is now close to killing Tyrion via trial and execution. Jaime really, really doesn’t like his father right now. So what better way to send a big fuck you than to give away the Valyrian sword that Tywin values so highly? > [@](#): > > Overall I did find the episode to be rather boring. The crazy crow at Craster’s Keep was just too over-the-top evil for me to take seriously or to buy into his continued existence beyond probably next week’s episode. Don’t know if you remember, but he was one of the psychos locked in the cage with Jaqen H’ghar (Arya’s assassin buddy) back in Season One. There’s a reason he was caged and not walking free. > [@LibrarySpy](#): > > How did Ghost get captured by the mutineers? When they were at Craster’s before, he forced them to lock Ghost up, because he was nervous about having Ghost free. Then the mutiny happened, and Jon had to scatter. Why they didn’t simply spear Ghost to death, I’m not really sure. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153/46 "2014-04-28T15:23:49Z")
I’m sure he’ll keep his fingers crossed as he takes the oath. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153/47 "2014-04-28T15:29:31Z")
> [@Sauron](#): > > Not that it would matter to Locke or the Boltons, but I’m fairly certain Locke hasn’t taken the oath yet. When he volunteered for the Craster Disaster mission, something was said about taking a “recruit” (as opposed to a Brother), and Jon looked at the Commander to make sure it was okay to accept Locke’s offer. > > Seems like there’s a training period before they officially take the oath - can’t remember specifically - but I don’t think Locke has become a full-fledged Brother yet. Jon said he couldn’t take a recruit, Locke said then let me take the oath, thats when jon looked at Thorne for permission. ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153/48 "2014-04-28T16:01:02Z")
> [@JSexton](#): > > When they were at Craster’s before, he forced them to lock Ghost up, because he was nervous about having Ghost free. Then the mutiny happened, and Jon had to scatter. Why they didn’t simply spear Ghost to death, I’m not really sure. I already said this a few comments ago, but: Jon was off with the Wildlings while the rest of the Night’s Watch expedition was fighting off zombies &/or White Walkers. They eventually (after an episode or two) made their way back to Craster’s and _that_’s when the mutiny happened. Jon was far away discovering the joys of ginger when the mutiny happened, and the mutineers apparently captured Ghost at some point after that. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153/49 "2014-04-28T16:04:15Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I agree. It’s easy to sympathize with murdering a bunch of slaveowners, but that doesn’t mean it was a bright idea or a good thing to do. Danaerys chose vengeance and sending a message over good sense. If you’re fighting a war you usually want to encourage your enemies to surrender because it means you probably won’t have to fight as much. If you kill your enemies after they’ve already surrendered, the message that gets sent is “Fight to the last man because you will get murdered even if you surrender.” She’s already sent the message that she’s uncompromisingly opposed to slavery and that she’s able to convince slaves to take up arms against their masters on her before. But on top of showing a scarier side of her character, this was impractical and that could definitely cause problems for her later. Or it could just encourage people to start murdering their slaves if they hear she’s marching on their city. Historically, most of the prolific conquerers were quite brutal to populations that resisted them. The idea was - you can surrender to us now, and we’ll let you live - but if we shed one drop of blood taking your city, we’re going to brutally murder you all. So they did wish to encourage surrender, but they thought that the way to do it was to follow through with brutality towards those who didn’t. In this case, did she even offer them the option of surrender? She definitely did to Yunkai. I get the impression with Selmy’s little sidebar that we’re supposed to view this action by Dany as overly harsh, and maybe Selmy is a little concerned he sees a little bit of the Targaryen crazy in her, but I can’t get too worked up about it. They were dicks, killing and hanging the children like that, and for what purpose? I don’t think it was meant to intimidate her or scare her off, and in fact would probably just lead her to being even more aggressive. So they were doing it just to flaunt their cruelty in her face. Of course, the “they” here becomes one big jumbled hive mind with one dimensional enemies. We assume the slavers were all equally bad, that hanging the child slaves was some sort of unanimous decision by them all, and of course that lacks nuance. Maybe most of the slavers in the city treated their slaves decently by the standards of the time and were just trying to get by in life. Who knows. But we get the standard shorthand story of making them all equally irredeemably evil and guilty, in which case treating them that way is hard to get worked up over. I do suspect the story is setting that up to be some sort of overzealous flaw of hers that’ll come to bite her in the ass, but it’s not a particularly compelling one to me. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153/50 "2014-04-28T16:04:50Z")
> [@LawMonkey](#): > > I think they’re teasing that inflexibility and harshness as leading to some problems down the road. Also, it’s adding a little bit of nuance to her character; up til now, she’s been as close as this show gets to a “good guy” since Ned Stark. Remember, she’s the daughter of the Mad King, a fellow who liked setting people on fire. Dany seems to like having her dragons set people on fire, too. I don’t think that’s a coincidence. Remember that people with the highest ideals often have the fewest brakes on their behavior. After all, if you KNOW you’re virtuous, then your enemies must be pure evil, which means they deserve whatever they get. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153/51 "2014-04-28T16:07:51Z")
One thing that no one seems to have mentioned yet, the White Walker that turned the baby (and it looked to be a group of them) was decidedly different from the White Walkers we’ve seen before. It had weird horn like things and was less corpsified. I’m assuming those are the leaders. ---
**Author:** ![oft\_wears\_hats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7993a0/32.png) [@oft\_wears\_hats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oft_wears_hats)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153/52 "2014-04-28T16:12:44Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Remember, she’s the daughter of the Mad King, a fellow who liked setting people on fire. Dany seems to like having her dragons set people on fire, too. I don’t think that’s a coincidence. > > Remember that people with the highest ideals often have the fewest brakes on their behavior. After all, if you KNOW you’re virtuous, then your enemies must be pure evil, which means they deserve whatever they get. Now _that’s_ an interesting idea. Setting everyone up to root for Danerys only to have her become the new Mad King. Joffrey didn’t care about the welfare of his subjects, but his cruelty was small and petty. He just wanted to sit on the throne, have all the best toys, and do whatever he wanted. Definitely bad for the kingdom, but it would have been a slow decay. Danerys thinks she’s burning away evil with righteous fire, and for now she’s basically right. But what happens if those madness genes kick in? ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153/53 "2014-04-28T16:13:52Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Craster’s women chanting “deliver the child” was among the creepiest moment of the series. It sort of implies they could probably drive out their new masters anytime they wanted to. > > I hope Diana Rigg is at least nominated for an Emmy. I would so totally pay to see her and Charles Dance in a revival of THE LION IN WINTER. Speaking of, Dance is an actor so imposing he is noticeable in his absence (as he was tonight). The only thing I ever remember seeing Dance in was Eddie Murphy’s _ **The Golden Child,** _ in which he played the Devil. What else has he done that Americans would know about? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153/54 "2014-04-28T16:25:35Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Historically, most of the prolific conquerers were quite brutal to populations that resisted them. The idea was - you can surrender to us now, and we’ll let you live - but if we shed one drop of blood taking your city, we’re going to brutally murder you all. So they did wish to encourage surrender, but they thought that the way to do it was to follow through with brutality towards those who didn’t. In this case, did she even offer them the option of surrender? She definitely did to Yunkai. That may be a good point about the historical context. I don’t remember her offering terms to Meereen. I think at this point you’re supposed to surrender as soon as she turns up at your city gates. But I still think this may cause problems for her at some point, and that’s irrespective of how I feel about killing those people from a moral standpoint. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153/55 "2014-04-28T16:28:59Z")
> [@oft\_wears\_hats](#): > > Danerys thinks she’s burning away evil with righteous fire, and for now she’s basically right. But what happens if those madness genes kick in? Meh. Stannis is doing far more burning away evil with righteous fire than Dany is. If your theory were true, she’d have rounded up the rest of the Meereen aristocrats and burned them in the central area with her dragons, rather than “just” crucifying 163 of them. Meereen is her biggest conquest, and she didn’t even strike a match (other than Grey Worm lighting a couple torches to see by…). ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153/56 "2014-04-28T16:31:47Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > The only thing I ever remember seeing Dance in was Eddie Murphy’s _ **The Golden Child,** _ in which he played the Devil. What else has he done that Americans would know about? He was the villain in Last Action Hero. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153/57 "2014-04-28T16:43:15Z")
> [@JSexton](#): > > Don’t know if you remember, but he was one of the psychos locked in the cage with Jaqen H’ghar (Arya’s assassin buddy) back in Season One. There’s a reason he was caged and not walking free. Are you sure? That doesn’t sound right to me, given that as far as we could see that entire group of Nights-Watch-recruits (led by what was his name maybe Yoren?) got captured by Polliver and co and ended up either dead or at Harrenhall. This may not have been the most action-packed of episodes, but I found it entertaining the whole way through, with some great scenes (Jaime and Brienne, Jaime and Tyrion, Margaery and Tommen) and a bunch of interesting setup (as others have commented, interesting things finally happening for Bran). The only thing that pegged my suspension-of-disbelief-o-meter is the idea that the mutineers would waste time and food keeping Ghost alive. I mean, I guess it arguably gives them some leverage with Jon Snow if he randomly shows up, and maybe they think that having a captive direwolf makes them badasses, but still… As for Danaerys, I think that she captured the city and freed the slaves and at that point was willing to live and let live and not slaughter all the former “great masters” (which is probably good governance for a variety of reasons, including that they had valuable skills and knowledge), EXCEPT that they had sent her an extra little FU in nailing the kids to the mile markers, so she felt that she had to get payback for those poor kids. Presumably there were a lot more than 163 of them, so it’s not she engaged in mass slaughter. Seems both in-character and not necessarily a sign of impending genocidal frenzy. ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153/58 "2014-04-28T16:56:40Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Are you sure? That doesn’t sound right to me, given that as far as we could see that entire group of Nights-Watch-recruits (led by what was his name maybe Yoren?) got captured by Polliver and co and ended up either dead or at Harrenhall. I’m apparently wrong there. I thought Rorge came north, but the leader of the mutineers is Karl, and he’s just vanilla night’s watch. Whoops. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153/59 "2014-04-28T16:57:48Z")
I thought it was telling that they had the guy who served under the Mad King try to talk her out of it. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153/60 "2014-04-28T17:01:54Z")
The scene at Craster’s was the first to makle me sad. Craster’s daughter had already suffered enough and now being constantly raped is like salt to the wound. I hope the “bad” crows get what they deserve. They even injured good ol’ Hodor. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-04-oathkeeper-4-27-14-no-spoilers/687153.md?page=4)