# Game of Thrones 4.05 "The First Of His Name" 5/4/14 NO SPOILERS **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 5, 2014, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-05-the-first-of-his-name-5-4-14-no-spoilers/687679 "2014-05-05T00:46:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-05-the-first-of-his-name-5-4-14-no-spoilers/687679/221 "2014-05-07T09:13:33Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > or whether it’s purely a stepping stone to full-continental-bosshood. Why stop at a continent? It’s littlefinger we’re talking about 😃 ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-05-the-first-of-his-name-5-4-14-no-spoilers/687679/222 "2014-05-07T11:51:54Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > If Littlefinger knew that Arya was the cupbearer, I don’t think he would have implemented his assassination of Joffrey. If he knew that it was Arya it meant that she was with [Tywin]. If she’s with [Tywin], that means she’s somewhere in King’s Landing. It doesn’t mean she’s in King’s Landing. They weren’t in King’s Landing when he spotted her, and the fact that Tywin employed her services is evidence that he doensn’t bring cupbearers with him when he changes location. Instead, when he gets somewhere new he looks around to find a serving boy from the rabble running around in the streets. End result is there’s no reason to think she’d be brought to King’s Landing with him. ---
**Author:** ![carlb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carlb/32/5930_2.png) [@carlb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carlb)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-05-the-first-of-his-name-5-4-14-no-spoilers/687679/223 "2014-05-07T13:09:42Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > And Lysa has it in for Sansa because of her mother, Catelyn, from what is apparently a simmering resentment that started when they were young sisters (Lysa and Catelyn, that is). Although I don’t know how much of that is anything Catelyn did, or Lysa just being a total loon. > > I think you could also argue that Littlefinger wants Sansa\* (possibly because she’s Catelyn’s daughter), so that’s one more bit of trouble that Catelyn is still causing. > > \*And I think he does. His end game is to sit on the Iron Throne with Sansa as his queen, in my opinion. I think Littlefinger is too smart, and too much a student of history and politics to want the Iron Throne. He wants power. Becoming a lord of a significant kingdom (or two; he could, conceivably, become Lord of the Vale, arrange for Lysa to have an “accident”, and then marry Sansa, effectively inheriting Winterfell as well) and then becoming valuable to the Throne would put him in an excellent position to be Hand of the King. He’s already tasted power and influence as Master of Coin (and demonstrated competence at it); he would have to be a top candidate for Hand if he assisted some other family (like the Tyrells) in gaining the Iron Throne. That’s where the real power is. Arguably, the only really powerful people at the moment are Tywin Lannister (as Hand, and as financier of the last couple of wars), Varys (as spymaster and all-around sneaky guy), and possibly Olenna Tyrell (as mother to the Queen-to-be and all-around sneaky woman). I think _that’s_ the kind of power Littlefinger is after. Play it right, and you outlast specific Kings or even dynasties. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-05-the-first-of-his-name-5-4-14-no-spoilers/687679/224 "2014-05-07T13:38:21Z")
Perhaps he doesn’t even want to be Hand to the King? He may be happier (and safer) wielding power from the shadows. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-05-the-first-of-his-name-5-4-14-no-spoilers/687679/225 "2014-05-07T13:52:45Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > It doesn’t mean she’s in King’s Landing. They weren’t in King’s Landing when he spotted her, and the fact that Tywin employed her services is evidence that he doensn’t bring cupbearers with him when he changes location. Instead, when he gets somewhere new he looks around to find a serving boy from the rabble running around in the streets. > > End result is there’s no reason to think she’d be brought to King’s Landing with him. If she wasn’t at King’s Landing that’d mean she’d still be at Harrenhall (or dead) and Little Finger would definitely have found her if she was at Harrenhall - which she isn’t. Then she might be a) at Kings Landing or b) wandering the countryside. So… there’s _some_ reason. > [@carlb](#): > > That’s where the real power is. Arguably, the only really powerful people at the moment are Tywin Lannister (as Hand, and as financier of the last couple of wars), **Varys (as spymaster and all-around sneaky guy)**, and possibly Olenna Tyrell (as mother to the Queen-to-be and all-around sneaky woman). I think _that’s_ the kind of power Littlefinger is after. Play it right, and you outlast specific Kings or even dynasties. Littlefinger’s lived Varys’s role and I think he saw that the role didn’t afford much power. Varys is alive and well all things considered but he holds very little power. He has just enough to tread water, much like Maester Pycell. Tywin on the other hand doesn’t have power because he’s the Hand, but rather is the Hand because he has power. He chooses to be hand because of his wealth, armies, influence, and status as the head Lannister. Much like how Ned Stark had power and essentially acquiesces to take the job as Hand instead of aiming to reach it. Basically, you couldn’t get Bill Gates to be the VPotUS because it would mean giving up too much power and time and isn’t worth his efforts. I think that’s the level of “power” that LF is aiming for. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-05-the-first-of-his-name-5-4-14-no-spoilers/687679/226 "2014-05-07T14:47:17Z")
Isn’t Littlefinger now the Lord of Harrenhal as well? I’m not sure who’s actually running it right now (last we saw pre-Red Wedding the Starks controlled it), but as Tywin said, the title is more important than the actual castle. ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-05-the-first-of-his-name-5-4-14-no-spoilers/687679/227 "2014-05-07T14:51:45Z")
If part of Littlefinger’s endgame (midgame?) is to marry Sansa and have a stake in Winterfell, he needs to make sure she is cleared of Joffrey’s murder. Right now, Sansa is a fugitive believed to have been involved with Joffrey’s death along with her husband. Perhaps, Littlefinger’s the one actually behind the bribes and cajoling against Tyrion. He needs to have him “proved” to have acted alone and then put to death, so Sansa can come out of hiding. ---
**Author:** ![LawMonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@LawMonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LawMonkey)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-05-the-first-of-his-name-5-4-14-no-spoilers/687679/228 "2014-05-07T15:01:37Z")
[Facebook recap](http://happyplace.someecards.com/31126/game-of-thrones-facebook-recap-season-4-episode-5)’s up! ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-05-the-first-of-his-name-5-4-14-no-spoilers/687679/229 "2014-05-07T15:04:12Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > Littlefinger’s lived Varys’s role and I think he saw that the role didn’t afford much power. Varys is alive and well all things considered but he holds very little power. Varys has a lot of information that can be very useful to powerful people. What he lacks is a close connection to the Baratheons/Lannisters. He doesn’t want to rule himself and he may be satisfied with that, since what he wants is to steer the kingdom in a better direction. Maybe he would act more directly if he saw no other choice. Tywin had important ties to Robert and he still has those connections with Cersei’s sons. Littlefinger wants power for himself, so he’s trying to cultivate the same kinds of relationships. So far he seems to be doing pretty well at it. > [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > Isn’t Littlefinger now the Lord of Harrenhal as well? Yes. > [@](#): > > I’m not sure who’s actually running it right now (last we saw pre-Red Wedding the Starks controlled it), but as Tywin said, the title is more important than the actual castle. Seems like it’s abandoned right now. The Boltons occupied it after the Lannister army left, but they’re not there anymore. The former maester of the castle is in King’s Landing. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-05-the-first-of-his-name-5-4-14-no-spoilers/687679/230 "2014-05-07T15:21:25Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Yes, in real life he is 27 and the actress who plays Arya is 17 and it totally shows that they are 10 years apart, imho. Maybe it’s my own modern bias but I just didn’t get a romantic feeling from his side. Gendry is supposed to be 19 IIRC. But given that he’s the son of Robert and a blacksmith by trade, it’s not unreasonable to assume he’s big and strong for his age. Or by the standards of modern social media addicted emo teens who would have been killed in those days. I didn’t really get any sort of romance vibe between Gendry and Arya. More of a little sister vibe. He’s inexperienced with women and very aware of their different social status, in spite of their friendship. Arya is sort of asexual and tomboyish anyway. If this were a romantic comedy, they would meet later on as adults and kindle a romantic relationship then. Gendry awkwardly fulfilling his destiny as poor Fleabottom kid turned heir to House Baratheon and Arya as the daughter of Winterfell all grown up and all wrapped up in her career (presumably as an assassin). ---
**Author:** ![oft\_wears\_hats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7993a0/32.png) [@oft\_wears\_hats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oft_wears_hats)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-05-the-first-of-his-name-5-4-14-no-spoilers/687679/231 "2014-05-07T16:27:20Z")
> [@carlb](#): > > I think Littlefinger is too smart, and too much a student of history and politics to want the Iron Throne. He wants power. Becoming a lord of a significant kingdom (or two; he could, conceivably, become Lord of the Vale, arrange for Lysa to have an “accident”, and then marry Sansa, effectively inheriting Winterfell as well) and then becoming valuable to the Throne would put him in an excellent position to be Hand of the King. He’s already tasted power and influence as Master of Coin (and demonstrated competence at it); he would have to be a top candidate for Hand if he assisted some other family (like the Tyrells) in gaining the Iron Throne. > > That’s where the real power is. Arguably, the only really powerful people at the moment are Tywin Lannister (as Hand, and as financier of the last couple of wars), Varys (as spymaster and all-around sneaky guy), and possibly Olenna Tyrell (as mother to the Queen-to-be and all-around sneaky woman). I think _that’s_ the kind of power Littlefinger is after. Play it right, and you outlast specific Kings or even dynasties. > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Perhaps he doesn’t even want to be Hand to the King? He may be happier (and safer) wielding power from the shadows. Baelish is definitely aiming for something like the above, rather than sitting on the Iron Throne. He operates best from behind the scenes, and he wants power and control far more than he wants people to _know_ he has them. The last thing he’d want would to be way out in the open as the king of everything, with a nice big bulls-eye on his back. He’s Gus Fring, not Walter White. > [@msmith537](#): > > If this were a romantic comedy, they would meet later on as adults and kindle a romantic relationship then. Gendry awkwardly fulfilling his destiny as poor Fleabottom kid turned heir to House Baratheon and Arya as the daughter of Winterfell all grown up and all wrapped up in her career (presumably as an assassin). I would totally watch that movie. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-05-the-first-of-his-name-5-4-14-no-spoilers/687679/232 "2014-05-07T16:42:54Z")
> [@carlb](#): > > I think Littlefinger is too smart, and too much a student of history and politics to want the Iron Throne. He wants power. Becoming a lord of a significant kingdom (or two; he could, conceivably, become Lord of the Vale, arrange for Lysa to have an “accident”, and then marry Sansa, effectively inheriting Winterfell as well) and then becoming valuable to the Throne would put him in an excellent position to be Hand of the King. He’s already tasted power and influence as Master of Coin (and demonstrated competence at it); he would have to be a top candidate for Hand if he assisted some other family (like the Tyrells) in gaining the Iron Throne. > > That’s where the real power is. Arguably, the only really powerful people at the moment are Tywin Lannister (as Hand, and as financier of the last couple of wars), Varys (as spymaster and all-around sneaky guy), and possibly Olenna Tyrell (as mother to the Queen-to-be and all-around sneaky woman). I think _that’s_ the kind of power Littlefinger is after. Play it right, and you outlast specific Kings or even dynasties. I see what you’re saying, and I agree with most of it, but I think Littlefinger still has some minor family issues (I mean, growing up in a minor family) - he didn’t grow up with a powerful family (as far as I know), and I think he ultimately wants to lord it over all of them. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-05-the-first-of-his-name-5-4-14-no-spoilers/687679/233 "2014-05-07T16:55:55Z")
> [@oft\_wears\_hats](#): > > He’s Gus Fring, not Walter White. “Welcome to Los Pollos Hermanos. I’m Gus Fring, how may I help you?” “What the fuck’s a Gus Fring?” “Excuse me, sir?” “If any more words come pouring out your cunt mouth, I’m going to have to eat every fucking chicken in this room.” _Begin broadsword/box cutter duel._ ---
**Author:** ![chargerrich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chargerrich/32/5399_2.png) [@chargerrich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chargerrich)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-05-the-first-of-his-name-5-4-14-no-spoilers/687679/234 "2014-05-07T17:09:15Z")
I fear I will never get to see Jaqn H’Ghar in this series again and that makes me sad. Arya got the coin, so I assume she will go to Bravos at some point, but after re-watching the Arya/H’gar farewell again, he says Jagn H’gar is dead before he shape shifts. ☹ Best minor character of any show I can remember, he reminded me of a combination of Enzo (assassin’s creed) and Yoda! 😃 We needed more of him! :mad: ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-05-the-first-of-his-name-5-4-14-no-spoilers/687679/235 "2014-05-07T17:11:15Z")
> [@chargerrich](#): > > I fear I will never get to see Jaqn H’Ghar in this series again and that makes me sad. Arya got the coin, so I assume she will go to Bravos at some point, but after re-watching the Arya/H’gar farewell again, he says Jagn H’gar is dead before he shape shifts. ☹ > > Best minor character of any show I can remember, we needed more of him! :mad: I figure we’ll see him again, but not played by the same person. And speaking of forgotten characters, I wonder if we’ll ever get resolution to the “What happened to Benjen Stark?” storyline. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-05-the-first-of-his-name-5-4-14-no-spoilers/687679/236 "2014-05-07T17:27:10Z")
> [@Quimby](#): > > Syrio died “off screen.” Do we know if he is really dead? I remember thinking at the time he might turn up again. His last scene had all the hallmarks of the ‘we’re killing this popular character, so we’ll give him a glorious exit and spare you from having to look at his corpse.’ > [@chargerrich](#): > > I fear I will never get to see Jaqn H’Ghar in this series again and that makes me sad. Arya got the coin, so I assume she will go to Bravos at some point, but after re-watching the Arya/H’gar farewell again, he says Jagn H’gar is dead before he shape shifts. ☹ Jaqen changed his face when he said goodbye to Arya and suggested he wasn’t going to use that name anymore. I’m pretty sure they didn’t spend all that time setting up the Faceless Men of Braavos just to drop the whole thing forever. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-05-the-first-of-his-name-5-4-14-no-spoilers/687679/237 "2014-05-07T17:45:45Z")
[Facebook Game of Thrones is up.](http://happyplace.someecards.com/31126/game-of-thrones-facebook-recap-season-4-episode-5) ---
**Author:** ![LawMonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@LawMonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LawMonkey)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-05-the-first-of-his-name-5-4-14-no-spoilers/687679/238 "2014-05-07T17:46:49Z")
> [@LawMonkey](#): > > [Facebook recap](http://happyplace.someecards.com/31126/game-of-thrones-facebook-recap-season-4-episode-5)’s up! > [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > [Facebook Game of Thrones is up.](http://happyplace.someecards.com/31126/game-of-thrones-facebook-recap-season-4-episode-5) You don’t say? 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-05-the-first-of-his-name-5-4-14-no-spoilers/687679/239 "2014-05-07T18:06:58Z")
> [@Shakester](#): > > The official line is that they’re Robert Baratheon’s legitimate children/heirs. Are you seriously saying you didn’t know that? Now that I’m over having my intelligence insulted… What I should have asked is… did the king have a problem with his wife having kids by another man… her brother at that? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-05-the-first-of-his-name-5-4-14-no-spoilers/687679/240 "2014-05-07T18:13:50Z")
> [@What\_the](#): > > Now that I’m over having my intelligence insulted… > > What I should have asked is… did the king have a problem with his wife having kids by another man… her brother at that? There has been no evidence that Robert knew they were Jaime’s children. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-05-the-first-of-his-name-5-4-14-no-spoilers/687679.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-05-the-first-of-his-name-5-4-14-no-spoilers/687679.md?page=13)