# Game of Thrones 4.06 "The Laws of Gods and Men" 5/11/14 NO SPOILERS **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 11, 2014, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219 "2014-05-11T23:59:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/41 "2014-05-12T12:14:34Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > Can someone remind me why Varys spoke against Tyrion? Did something happen between them, or is this just Varys looking out for #1? Varys doesn’t look out for #1 exactly, he’s looking out for the Kingdom. And the Kingdom needs Varys steering things this way and that. So while he probably does have a soft spot for Tyrion, “sacrificing” himself or at least falling out of the good graces of the current rulers of the Kingdom for his sake wouldn’t accomplish much. Especially given that the outcome of the trial seems fairly predetermined. Well, unfairly 🙂 In other news : great business opportunities to be found for goatherds in Meereen. Kill one of your goats, chuck the bones in a fire, get three goats back ! Form a union, share the charred goats to maximize profits ! In further news : Tywin Lannister is a magnificent bastard, tome IV. 5 silver dragons get you 10 he set up the whole show trial JUST to get Jaime back on the breeding track - he said yes so fast. Muad’Dib ain’t got nothing on them wheels within wheels. Ramsey’s plan is cruel as hell, but risky too. What if “Reek” pieces his mind back when he’s in the safety of the Iron Islands ? Hell hath no fury, but that is still _low_, Shae. I wonder who’ll fight in Tyrion’s stead this time around. And who will fight for the prosecution. A neat mindgame for Tyrion to play would be to ask Jaime, bad hand or no. That way Tywin either gets a good fighter, kills his only viable heir ; or purposefully throw in a scrub, Tyrion goes free. Either way Tyrion gets one hella “No, fuck YOU, Dad”. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/42 "2014-05-12T12:19:46Z")
[QUOTE=SenorBeef] Also, it seems like they should make you choose your type of trial before it starts. Otherwise if a trial is clearly not going your way, you might as well take your chances at a trial by combat at that point. [/QUOTE] That was pretty much the point of trials (or ordeals) by combat in our world. Ostensibly it was to let God cast his own judgement by making whoever had the right case win the fight, man’s justice is flawed but God is all seeing and all powerful, yadda yadda. But fundamentally it was a way to ensure the warrior i.e ruling class stayed in power even when a non-warrior had a cast iron legal case against them. Feudal Justice not that just, film at 11 ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/43 "2014-05-12T12:40:48Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Ramsey’s plan is cruel as hell, but risky too. What if “Reek” pieces his mind back when he’s in the safety of the Iron Islands? The Iron Islanders are still occupying some place on the mainland - Deepwood Motte, I think it’s called - and I expect that’s where Reek is being sent. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/44 "2014-05-12T12:41:20Z")
> [@Queen\_Tonya](#): > > **I think Varys was just being smart and knowing he’s got to kowtow to whomever has the power.** His look when Tyrion asked him if he’d forgotten the battle of Blackwater seemed meaningful. I bet if Tyrion survives this trial by scheming somehow to escape, I could see Varys facilitating that since it would be behind the scenes and no one would know. Not really, Varys has always looked to the big picture. It was partially explained by Davos and Stannis. Tywin is 67 and the kingdom is fragmented. Tyrion is one of the few that could probably turn it around and at least maintain the status quo. For Varys and little finger to move up in power, someone has to go. My opinion was that Tryion was giving Varys notice that he was moving Varys to the enemy side of the ledger , while understanding why Varys did what he did. Declan ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/45 "2014-05-12T12:48:11Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Or maybe he just was carelessly making a rhetorical point without really meaning it, but that’s bad writing if that’s the case. Well, Jaime is dyslectic - it’s not bad writing to give him a not-completely-logical statement to make. > [@Stowed\_Bob](#): > > If the Mountain is called in, I could see the Prince of Dorne stepping up in Tyrion’s behalf to exact revenge for his sister. Yeah, I think it should be obvious at this point that they’ve been setting that up most of the season. > [@Oakminster](#): > > Also surprised Dani is apparently allowing her dragons to roam free. They’re dragons. They’re going to eat whatever looks tasty, and they’re still vulnerable to attack/capture. What’s the alternative? So what happens to the defendant in a trial by combat when he chooses someone to stand in, and they lose? Does he die as well? ---
**Author:** ![PetW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@PetW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PetW)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/46 "2014-05-12T12:48:30Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Varys doesn’t look out for #1 exactly, he’s looking out for the Kingdom. And the Kingdom needs Varys steering things this way and that. That’s what he claims, at least, but who really knows? So far I don’t think we’ve been given any big reason to doubt him, however. It was interesting in his scene with Oberyn that it seemed as if Varys was hinting that he wants to sit on the iron throne, when in the past he’s seemed to indicate that he thinks he’s safer and more effective on the sideline. Perhaps that was just him trying to plant the idea that Oberyn should become king? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/47 "2014-05-12T13:09:28Z")
> [@PetW](#): > > That’s what he claims, at least, but who really knows? So far I don’t think we’ve been given any big reason to doubt him, however. True. But at the very least I think we can safely say he hates Littlefinger’s guts and wants to oppose him at every turn. Which requires him to remain the imminent grease for the time being and the foreseeable future. > [@](#): > > Perhaps that was just him trying to plant the idea that Oberyn should become king? Or that he could be/have been if he didn’t let himself get sidetracked by his hedonism, yeah. Least that’s how I interpreted it. I don’t think Lord Varys the Stemless, King of the Andals and First of His Name would go over all that well with _hoi polloi_ 😛 [QUOTE=Shakester] The Iron Islanders are still occupying some place on the mainland - Deepwood Motte, I think it’s called - and I expect that’s where Reek is being sent. [/QUOTE] Oh, right, thank you, I’d clean forgotten about that. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/48 "2014-05-12T13:17:38Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > The scene with Reek was horrifying. Rescue came, and he was so mindfucked that he thought it was some sort of trick to test his loyalty. While I appreciate the cliché busting - the heroic rescue averted - it’s just sickening. I have no idea how anyone could possibly think Theon is getting what he deserved, when he’s one of the least malicious dicks we’ve seen. I agree here - I think it just continues to show that this world is not about justice, honor, good, or evil. Theon is on the bad side of life and there is no good to come to him (death at this point would be good though, so maybe that’s what’s in store for him). I have the same feeling for Sansa. > [@SenorBeef](#): > > What was Shae’s motivation? I thought that perhaps they had threatened her or otherwise bribed her, but she repeated his words back to him that she was just a whore, in a very hurt and hurtful sort of way. She can’t be lashing out at him simply for what he said, could she? Maybe she’d fail to come to his defense, but I can’t imagine she would proactively make up the whole story entirely out of vindictiveness. It seems like she must’ve been threatened by someone and turned and then coached with that story. If not, if she did it completely of her own volition, then she is, well, consistently stupid and reckless. I’ve been trying to puzzle this out myself. I think that Cersei definitely had something to do with it. Her handmaiden told her about the relationship with Tyrion. But what could they have over her? Her life? I think she was lashing out at him a little bit, but honestly, with him on trial for his life, I’d think she’d be mentally ill not to realize that he was trying to protect her. > [@SenorBeef](#): > > Also, it seems like they should make you choose your type of trial before it starts. Otherwise if a trial is clearly not going your way, you might as well take your chances at a trial by combat at that point. That’s lots of people dying in unnecessary duels. Yeah I feel that way as well. I’m actually a little confused - I can’t remember the last trial by combat all that well, is it just the practice that someone stands in for you to fight - or can you do it yourself? I have this hazy memory of Tyrion maybe saying something about his inability to fight last time. I can’t see him taking trial by combat if _he_ has to fight. I’m wondering who’s going to step up for him. If the prosecution has someone talented fighting, then Jaime is probably out (or maybe not, I dunno - I think his love for Cersei would make him want to survive and not be suicidal). We haven’t seen Bronn in ages it seems and I doubt he’d fight for Tyrion. > [@SenorBeef](#): > > When Tywin and Jaime speak during the recess, Tywin says “He killed his king” and Jaime says “as did I”, which suggests that Jaime has been convinced by the trial that Tyrion is guilty. Which is odd. Or maybe he just was carelessly making a rhetorical point without really meaning it, but that’s bad writing if that’s the case. Maybe he just thinks that his father is dead set on that idea? I thought it was a bit odd too. > [@Stowed\_Bob](#): > > If the Mountain is called in, I could see the Prince of Dorne stepping up in Tyrion’s behalf to exact revenge for his sister. What is the Mountain doing, anyway? > [@Kobal2](#): > > Ramsey’s plan is cruel as hell, but risky too. What if “Reek” pieces his mind back when he’s in the safety of the Iron Islands ? So you think that “Reek” is going back to the Iron Islands? I might have missed exactly what Ramsey said he was going to use Reek for. I can’t see how sending him back home would be of any advantage. He’s clearly lost his marbles, so it’s not like he could do anything official for Ramsey. At best he could let him into the castle after dark (sort of like a trojan horse). ---
**Author:** ![bouv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc8723/32.png) [@bouv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bouv)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/49 "2014-05-12T13:21:44Z")
> [@Meatros](#): > > Yeah I feel that way as well. I’m actually a little confused - I can’t remember the last trial by combat all that well, is it just the practice that someone stands in for you to fight - or can you do it yourself? I have this hazy memory of Tyrion maybe saying something about his inability to fight last time. You’re right that it was Tyrion. Early in season 1, he was at The Eyrie (where Sansa and Littlefinger are now,) standing trial for trying to murder Bran. He asks for trial by combat, again, when it’s clear he’s going to lose (because in that case, his judge was Robin Ayyrn, the little boy who is waaaaaaaay past breastfeeding age, who has an unhealthy obsession with watching people “fly” out the Moon Door.) He initially asks for his champion to be hid brother, Jaime. But Lysa Ayyrn tells him he has to fight now. He complains a bit that it’s not fair, since Lysa has a champion, so should he. Eventually, Bronn steps up and offers to fight for him. I get the feeling that if one wanted to, they could do the Trial by Combat themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/50 "2014-05-12T13:26:36Z")
Okay, I do remember that now. Thanks. I’ve been thinking about it - did Bronn visit Tyrion in his jail cell? Something isn’t sitting right with me. Bronn told Tyrion that Shae had been sent off, yet she obviously wasn’t. Why would Bronn lie about that (outside of money, obviously)? ---
**Author:** ![Mogle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mogle/32/12021_2.png) [@Mogle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mogle)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/51 "2014-05-12T13:34:26Z")
> [@Meatros](#): > > So you think that “Reek” is going back to the Iron Islands? I might have missed exactly what Ramsey said he was going to use Reek for. I can’t see how sending him back home would be of any advantage. He’s clearly lost his marbles, so it’s not like he could do anything official for Ramsey. At best he could let him into the castle after dark (sort of like a trojan horse). Moat Cailin to the south, Lord Bolton told Ramsey to retake it in episode 2. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/52 "2014-05-12T13:36:58Z")
> [@Meatros](#): > > Bronn told Tyrion that Shae had been sent off, yet she obviously wasn’t. We don’t know that. We don’t know where she has been, or the circumstances of her return, if she left. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/53 "2014-05-12T13:41:40Z")
I think that Tywin did not expect Tyrion to have an outburst like that. Sending Tyrion to the wall was his plan all along and he has received reports of White Walkers. He probably wanted Tyrion as his man there anyway. Shae, is Cercei’s gambit I think. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/54 "2014-05-12T13:42:49Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > So what happens to the defendant in a trial by combat when he chooses someone to stand in, and they lose? Does he die as well? It’s basically a guilty verdict so in this case i would imagine so. ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_Prize](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@Sir\_Prize](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_Prize)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/55 "2014-05-12T13:42:51Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I wonder who’ll fight in Tyrion’s stead this time around. And who will fight for the prosecution. A neat mindgame for Tyrion to play would be to ask Jaime, bad hand or no. That way Tywin either gets a good fighter, kills his only viable heir ; or purposefully throw in a scrub, Tyrion goes free. Either way Tyrion gets one hella “No, fuck YOU, Dad”. Tyrion still loves his brother and must know that Jamie is vulnerable. But I cannot imagine who else he’d think would fight for him. However, maybe he realizes that it’s in Tywin’s best interest to make sure that he lives. I don’t see how any system with both capital punishment and trail by combat could work if you could choose trail by combat when the trial is almost over. ---
**Author:** ![Ambrosio\_Spinola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Ambrosio\_Spinola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambrosio_Spinola)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/56 "2014-05-12T13:42:54Z")
> [@bouv](#): > > I get the feeling that if one wanted to, they could do the Trial by Combat themselves. Sandor Clegane was his own champion in his trial by combat, which makes sense for him. I’m not sure if they’ve ever established that just anyone can name a champion, or if you have to have some sort of disability to invoke that rule. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/57 "2014-05-12T13:55:50Z")
> [@Sir\_Prize](#): > > Tyrion still loves his brother and must know that Jamie is vulnerable. But I cannot imagine who else he’d think would fight for him. However, maybe he realizes that it’s in Tywin’s best interest to make sure that he lives. > > I don’t see how any system with both capital punishment and trail by combat could work if you could choose trail by combat when the trial is almost over. I think the trial was part grand jury, part inquest. Up to a certain point, Tryion is considered innocent, once the tribunal has enough evidence/testimony that dams the charged person, it moves into the penalty phase. So at this point, Tryion realizes that , while he knew he was not going to get a fair trial, trial by combat was his last gambit to screw up Tywins plans. Declan ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/58 "2014-05-12T14:17:43Z")
The speech that Davos (the Onion Knight) made on Stannis’s behalf to the Iron Banker reminded me of a campaign manager’s plea to a potential backer of a political campaign. And the recap I read in the New York Times last night said that the Iron Bank _didn’t_ back Stannis in the end but based on the cash Davos flashed to the Pirate King it looked like Stannis did get backing from the Iron Bank. So if that’s the case, what does that mean for the Lannisters? ---
**Author:** ![Death\_of\_Rats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Death\_of\_Rats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Death_of_Rats)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/59 "2014-05-12T14:25:56Z")
Bronn is a sellsword and his loyalty to Tyrian came from Tyrian’s gold and the power and status that came with it. It ran out when Tyrian’s access to gold did. Just how long Bronn has been on the open market in King’s Landing is another question, but I suspect that the answer is “longer than Tyrian realized” ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/60 "2014-05-12T14:35:23Z")
I don’t see the Mountain fighting for Tyrion. He has much more allegiance to Tywin and Cersei. That sets up Oberyn to by Tyrion’s champion - but I’m not sure how that works with him being a judge. I doubt that the Hound makes it back within an episode to exact revenge against his brother, and Bronn’s too fond of his own life to fight the Mountain. Seems like a lot of plot setting up to not have Oberyn not kill the Mountain though, and that way Tyrion still gets to live. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219.md?page=4)