# Game of Thrones 4.06 "The Laws of Gods and Men" 5/11/14 NO SPOILERS **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 11, 2014, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219 "2014-05-11T23:59:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/61 "2014-05-12T14:35:47Z")
> [@Death\_of\_Rats](#): > > Bronn is a sellsword and his loyalty to Tyrian came from Tyrian’s gold and the power and status that came with it. It ran out when Tyrian’s access to gold did. Just how long Bronn has been on the open market in King’s Landing is another question, but I suspect that the answer is “longer than Tyrian realized” Bronn started off as loyal to Tyrion just based on payment but somewhere along the way, they developed a real friendship. And I think now he and Jaime are establishing one. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/62 "2014-05-12T14:40:49Z")
Bronn is no longer a sellsword, he got promoted to knight after the blackwater and i believe he told Oberyn he was now a lord during the first episode, because he “killed the right people”. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/63 "2014-05-12T14:53:03Z")
> [@Mogle](#): > > Moat Cailin to the south, Lord Bolton told Ramsey to retake it in episode 2. How would Theon help with that? > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > We don’t know that. We don’t know where she has been, or the circumstances of her return, if she left. We don’t know if that all actually happened, but Bronn did tell Tyrion that Shae had left - didn’t he? I could have sworn he did. True, something might have happened afterwards that didn’t involve Bronn. I’m probably off base, but something feels sketchy about Bronn. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/64 "2014-05-12T14:56:08Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > Tywin is officially the worst human in the show. His cruelty is calculated and clear-minded. To my mind, cruelty implies intentionally causing suffering simply for its own sake. On that conception, I wouldn’t have said Tywin is ever cruel. But do you have a different idea about what “cruelty” is? I actually think Tywin is one of the most morally sound people on the show. ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_Prize](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@Sir\_Prize](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_Prize)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/65 "2014-05-12T15:01:51Z")
> [@Meatros](#): > > We don’t know if that all actually happened, but Bronn did tell Tyrion that Shae had left - didn’t he? I could have sworn he did. True, something might have happened afterwards that didn’t involve Bronn. I’m probably off base, but something feels sketchy about Bronn. He told him but it was obvious he wasn’t telling him everything. ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_Prize](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@Sir\_Prize](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_Prize)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/66 "2014-05-12T15:05:30Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > I don’t see the Mountain fighting for Tyrion. He has much more allegiance to Tywin and Cersei. That sets up Oberyn to by Tyrion’s champion - but I’m not sure how that works with him being a judge. I doubt that the Hound makes it back within an episode to exact revenge against his brother, and Bronn’s too fond of his own life to fight the Mountain. Seems like a lot of plot setting up to not have Oberyn not kill the Mountain though, and that way Tyrion still gets to live. Tyrion and the Mountain would make an interesting pair - the biggest and smallest in the kingdom. So far they have made the mountain a boring personality. Not really a good foil for Tyrion. Maybe that is why he has been recast. ---
**Author:** ![ctnguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@ctnguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ctnguy)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/67 "2014-05-12T15:17:38Z")
> [@Mogle](#): > > Moat Cailin to the south, Lord Bolton told Ramsey to retake it in episode 2. > [@Meatros](#): > > How would Theon help with that? Moat Cailin is held by Ironborn sent by Balon Greyjoy. ---
**Author:** ![drastic\_quench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e36b37/32.png) [@drastic\_quench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drastic_quench)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/68 "2014-05-12T15:19:12Z")
> [@Meatros](#): > > How would Theon help with that? > > We don’t know if that all actually happened, but Bronn did tell Tyrion that Shae had left - didn’t he? I could have sworn he did. True, something might have happened afterwards that didn’t involve Bronn. I’m probably off base, but something feels sketchy about Bronn. Bronn told Tyrion only that she got on the boat. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/69 "2014-05-12T15:28:18Z")
> [@Queen\_Tonya](#): > > kowtow to whomever has the power. If you’ll pardon a nitpick – “whoever has the power” (it’s the subject of the clause, not the object) > [@](#): > > Also, I spent way too many minutes thinking about the logistics of erecting and maintaining that giant iron dude Stannis sailed under when they were going to the Iron Bank. That would be truly something to behold if it were real. It looks like a version of the Colossus of Rhodes – [Colossus of Rhodes - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus_of_Rhodes) > [@Garula](#): > > Didn’t he murder a couple of orphans when he couldn’t find Bran and Rickon? I don’t think they were orphans, not until the search party showed up anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/70 "2014-05-12T15:33:53Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > To my mind, cruelty implies intentionally causing suffering simply for its own sake. On that conception, I wouldn’t have said Tywin is ever cruel. But do you have a different idea about what “cruelty” is? > > I actually think Tywin is one of the most morally sound people on the show. I’d take out the “for it’s own sake” part of your definition. But maybe cruel isn’t the right word after all. In retrospect, I think I like the term “ruthless” better to describe Tywin. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/71 "2014-05-12T15:34:50Z")
I don’t think Tywin would be in charge of the prosecution, that would be Cersei. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/72 "2014-05-12T15:35:47Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I don’t think they were orphans, not until the search party showed up anyway. I was under the impression they were the two orphans Bronn had sent to help the farmer. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/73 "2014-05-12T15:44:18Z")
> [@Meatros](#): > > did Bronn visit Tyrion in his jail cell? Bronn told Jaimie that he (Bronn) wasn’t allowed to visit Tyrion in jail. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/74 "2014-05-12T15:44:19Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > “You will father children that are named Lannister” whoa, just drop that right in there Tywin. He’s never hesitated to say brutal things to his children. > [@PetW](#): > > I get the crazy feeling that Jaime is going to offer to duel Tyrion. Would be even more epic if it was Tywin! I think Tyrion will choose Jaime - it’s Jaime or Bron; who else would stand for him? I was wondering if it’s possible Jaime will be chosen to fight for the crown and choose to sacrifice himself, but it’s unlikely Tywin would pick him. Jaime had a moment of real nobility in this episode and I wonder how they will take it further in the next few. > [@Oakminster](#): > > Yes. He deserves an Emmy, Golden Globe, or whatever awards are appropriate for HBO series. Outstanding work. He deserves a pile of them. I saw it as Tyrion’s ‘hath not a Jew eyes’ moment: his heart was broken, so he let out some of his deepest feelings in a torrent of bitterness. And it’s probably just going to make things worse for him. I’m assuming I can’t spoil a 400-year-old play, so I’ll add that Shylock in _Merchant of Venice_ also rejects a deal in open court and winds up paying a greater price. I don’t think this is the end of Tyrion, but in the general trend of things getting worse for everybody the audience likes… > [@](#): > > Can’t say I’m impressed with the legal system here. That’s hardly surprising. Today nobody thinks medieval courts and star chambers were just. > [@](#): > > I was somewhat surprised the Greyjoy raid ended the way it did. Seems like they still had a fighting chance of killing whoever the sadistic bastard is…Ramsay? I forgot his name. Ramsay, yes. And I understand why the whole sequence ended the way it did: Yara arrived with only a small raiding party and I assume Ramsay had a lot more soldiers in the castle who could have showed up in a few minutes. And Theon was not going to go willingly, which didn’t surprise me. But after that much buildup and badass speechmaking from Yara, it was kind of a letdown. ‘He is a price of the Iron Islands! These men killed your brothers and mutilated your prince! What they do to him, they do to all of us! … You know what, nevermind. I’m out.’ > [@Sir\_Prize](#): > > Davos’ speech about Stannis convinced them. Right. That was a great moment from Davos, who’s another one of those characters who I find easy to like: he is 100% devoted to Stannis’ cause (despite his doubts about Melisandre) and isn’t trying to betray anyone or screw anyone over, and he’s serious but I’d say he’s not pompous. And of course the scenes where he learned to read were kind of adorable. And a lot of what Davos said is unquestionably true: the Lannisters really are a mess without Tywin. Tywin has conceded that if they don’t consolidate and maximize their power right now, they’re going to be obliterated. He doesn’t trust anyone else to help him with that task and he doesn’t seem to realize what his drive for power, supposedly in the interest of protecting his family, has really done to his family. > [@](#): > > Also, we don’t know if the next stage of the trial was the defense because Tyrion upset Tywin’s plan. That was my impression. I believe Tyrion said a couple of episodes ago that he was having trouble finding anyone to speak on his behalf. Then he sent Pod away, realizing that the fix was in and whatever was going to happen was going to happen and that he didn’t want to be the ruin of anybody else. > [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > Here we fucking go. Aside from a few exciting moments Season 4’s been off to a slow start. Still good, but obviously spending a lot of time setting up the pieces. Now we’re full steam ahead. Yes. There were some good moments here and there but the momentum was lacking in the last few episodes. It feels like we’re getting somewhere now. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I don’t think so. The Mountain is about to show up. That could be, but I feel like they’re setting up a confrontation between The Mountain and Arya & The Hound. > [@Push\_You\_Down](#): > > I think another swerve…Auberyn is Tyrion’s champion so he can have his shot at the Mountain. I kind of assumed Oberyn is ineligible because he’s a judge, but we don’t know the rules of the court. So maybe. > [@SenorBeef](#): > > The scene with Reek was horrifying. Rescue came, and he was so mindfucked that he thought it was some sort of trick to test his loyalty. While I appreciate the cliché busting - the heroic rescue averted - it’s just sickening. Everything involving Theon since Ramsay got his hands on him has been 100% horrifying, and his last couple of scenes have been just about as bad as the endless torture sequences from the last season and the murder-hunt thing at the beginning of this one. But at least now he’s involved in some kind of story, and that makes it a tiny bit more bearable. > [@](#): > > I have no idea how anyone could possibly think Theon is getting what he deserved, when he’s one of the least malicious dicks we’ve seen. I try to avoid the question of what characters deserve, but I’ll point out there’s a definite arc to Theon here. He wanted the Starks’ approval and they seem to have welcomed him, but he never felt at home there. When he was sent to the Iron Islands at the beginning of the war, he tried even harder to please the father who rejected everything about him. So he betrayed the Starks and acted like a shit heel, but he didn’t persuade anyone, none of it worked, and he got captured by Ramsay. Now, as a tortured, mutilated slave, he finally feels like he belongs somewhere. Looked at in that light, the whole thing makes me even queasier. > [@](#): > > Also, it seems like they should make you choose your type of trial before it starts. Otherwise if a trial is clearly not going your way, you might as well take your chances at a trial by combat at that point. That’s lots of people dying in unnecessary duels. Yes. At the risk of putting a slight damper on a great moment, it’s the second time Tyrion has pulled this exact move. > [@SenorBeef](#): > > When Tywin and Jaime speak during the recess, Tywin says “He killed his king” and Jaime says “as did I”, which suggests that Jaime has been convinced by the trial that Tyrion is guilty. Which is odd. Or maybe he just was carelessly making a rhetorical point without really meaning it, but that’s bad writing if that’s the case. It was a little weird. I think it’s plausible that Jaime just doesn’t know what to believe about Joffrey’s murder. There’s been a lot of fairly powerful testimony against Tyrion, but Jaime knows his father and Cersei can’t be trusted. The only part he’s sure of is that Tyrion shouldn’t die. > [@Meatros](#): > > What is the Mountain doing, anyway? He was sent to the Riverlands to find and kill The Brotherhood Without Banners. So he’s doing the Number 6 Dance all over the countryside. > [@](#): > > So you think that “Reek” is going back to the Iron Islands? I might have missed exactly what Ramsey said he was going to use Reek for. I can’t see how sending him back home would be of any advantage. He’s clearly lost his marbles, so it’s not like he could do anything official for Ramsey. At best he could let him into the castle after dark (sort of like a trojan horse). He’s sending him undercover somewhere- probably Moat Cailin because that’s where the Iron Island forces are staying in the North. Ramsay and his father want to get rid of those soldiers so they can take more territory in the North. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/75 "2014-05-12T15:46:12Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > I was under the impression they were the two orphans Bronn had sent to help the farmer. Of course by Bronn I meant Bran ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/76 "2014-05-12T15:49:54Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > T > What was Shae’s motivation? I thought that perhaps they had threatened her or otherwise bribed her, but she repeated his words back to him that she was just a whore, in a very hurt and hurtful sort of way. She can’t be lashing out at him simply for what he said, could she? So I rewatched the part when Tyrion start digging his grave deeper and demands trial by combat. Tywin looks positively exasperated as his bluff has been called. Jaime is crestfallen, everyone else is either irate or in pure disbelief… and then they show Shae briefly and she seems… confused and concerned. Could she somehow have known that he wasn’t going to be executed? Maybe she was led to believe that we would be spared in exchange for her testimony? Yes, she might have been pissed off enough to damn him at the trial, but I could also see her character simply saying, kill me, I won’t testify, and Tywin saying: “He’s my son, he’ll punished and sent to the wall but not killed, IF you testify”. I don’t know, seems unlikely but I don’t want to believe Shae could turn on him like that. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/77 "2014-05-12T15:58:27Z")
We got a handful of significant reaction shots of Margaery during the trial. Whatever happens, she’ll have something to do with it. Maybe she’ll try to persuade Tommen to intervene and grant mercy to Tyrion after the trial because she already knows he didn’t do it and that the Lannisters are even more rotten than she’d realized? Or maybe Ser Loras will be persuaded to fight? ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/78 "2014-05-12T16:05:18Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > We got a handful of significant reaction shots of Margaery during the trial. Whatever happens, she’ll have something to do with it. Maybe she’ll try to persuade Tommen to intervene and grant mercy to Tyrion after the trial because she already knows he didn’t do it and that the Lannisters are even more rotten than she’d realized? Or maybe Ser Loras will be persuaded to fight? At the very least, she’s getting a good indication of how duplicitous the Lannisters are. I’m sure the general consensus on them is that they have deep pockets and just pay off their debts - now she’s learning how they earn their money, and the extent to which they fight for their interests. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/79 "2014-05-12T16:06:42Z")
A couple of the posts here suggested that The Hound might fight for Tyrion. But right now, he’s a wanted man for killing those soldiers in that tavern. So could he just show up in King’s Landing? ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/80 "2014-05-12T16:09:33Z")
Excellent episode. A few comments on the topics in the thread: I wouldn’t call Tywin cruel. He is, however, cold and calculating. More amoral than immoral. Theon has done some horrible things but he is definitely a tragic character. The things he did he never really believed in. It was all to win the respect of his Shit heel of a father. I think Shae believed the false awful things that Tyrion had to say to force her to leave. That’s what made her angry enough to come back and testify. Varys’ loyalty is to the Realm. He wants to 7 Kingdoms to continue to exist. he doesn’t care who is king as long as the Realm endures. Littlefinger, on the other hand, is after power at whatever the cost. He could care less what happens to the realm as long as he is on top of whatever is left. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219.md?page=5)