# Game of Thrones 4.06 "The Laws of Gods and Men" 5/11/14 NO SPOILERS **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 11, 2014, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219 "2014-05-11T23:59:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/101 "2014-05-12T19:37:06Z")
> [@LawMonkey](#): > > None of which I was really able to interpret. (Hey, I’m a dude and bad at reading faces even for a dude.) Not at all sure what she was thinking. I don’t think we were meant to understand what she was thinking. But they showed us her face two or three times for a reason. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/102 "2014-05-12T19:46:33Z")
Oops…misread. Comment witdrawn. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/103 "2014-05-12T19:49:33Z")
Tywin is extremely wise and his integrity is impeccable. Moreover, he serves a greater good, not only his family line, but the kingdom itself. I’m a minority of one, but I do give him more moral credit than you guys. I mean, “more moral credit” doesn’t mean he’s a good guy. He doesn’t have an ounce of kindness. He doesn’t care about anyone’s suffering. So he’s not good. But there’s a kind of moral soundness to him. He’s not just “out for number one,” and the ideals (yes, ideals!) that guide him are “good-in-theory” enough to make him feel like a moral character to me, not an im- or a-moral one. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/104 "2014-05-12T19:52:53Z")
> [@ctnguy](#): > > Moat Cailin is held by Ironborn sent by Balon Greyjoy. Okay, but they certainly aren’t going to listen to Theon - even if he was firing on all cylinders. Then again, I guess Ramsey doesn’t know this. > [@drastic\_quench](#): > > Bronn told Tyrion only that she got on the boat. Hm…Still sketchy of Bronn… > [@EllisDee](#): > > Bronn told Jaimie that he (Bronn) wasn’t allowed to visit Tyrion in jail. Thanks. > [@Marley23](#): > > I try to avoid the question of what characters deserve, but I’ll point out there’s a definite arc to Theon here. He wanted the Starks’ approval and they seem to have welcomed him, but he never felt at home there. When he was sent to the Iron Islands at the beginning of the war, he tried even harder to please the father who rejected everything about him. So he betrayed the Starks and acted like a shit heel, but he didn’t persuade anyone, none of it worked, and he got captured by Ramsay. Now, as a tortured, mutilated slave, he finally feels like he belongs somewhere. Looked at in that light, the whole thing makes me even queasier. Yes, I agree and that’s an interesting arc you pointed out. > [@Marley23](#): > > He was sent to the Riverlands to find and kill The Brotherhood Without Banners. So he’s doing the Number 6 Dance all over the countryside. Is that the group that Arya was briefly with? The one with the guy who’s died something like 6 times? > [@Marley23](#): > > He’s sending him undercover somewhere- probably Moat Cailin because that’s where the Iron Island forces are staying in the North. Ramsay and his father want to get rid of those soldiers so they can take more territory in the North. I wonder if he’s going to act like his old confident self… I’m also wondering how that’s going to work out with Yara seeing him and declaring him dead. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/105 "2014-05-12T19:55:00Z")
Bronn didn’t tell Jamie that he wasn’t allowed to visit Tyrion, Pod told Tyrion that Bronn wasn’t allowed to visit him. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/106 "2014-05-12T20:08:19Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Tywin is extremely wise and his integrity is impeccable. Moreover, he serves a greater good, not only his family line, but the kingdom itself. I’m a minority of one, but I do give him more moral credit than you guys. > > I mean, “more moral credit” doesn’t mean he’s a good guy. He doesn’t have an ounce of kindness. He doesn’t care about anyone’s suffering. So he’s not good. > > But there’s a kind of moral soundness to him. He’s not just “out for number one,” and the ideals (yes, ideals!) that guide him are “good-in-theory” enough to make him feel like a moral character to me, not an im- or a-moral one. Tywin is a cast iron sonuvabitch…but he makes the trains run on time. He may be the most capable person available to run the kingdom, other than Tyrion. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/107 "2014-05-12T20:12:04Z")
Did you see this pic from the President’s speech at the recent White House Correspondents Assn. dinner?: [https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/The\_Westeros\_Wing.jpg](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/The_Westeros_Wing.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/108 "2014-05-12T20:13:46Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Right, but \*\*Quimby \*\*was saying he wasn’t immoral. Of course he’s immoral. He’s an evil bastard, plain and simple. He’s the guy Palpatine only wishes he could be. When you plot terminally evil shit because that happens to be convenient, you’re immoral aren’t you ? You don’t have to \*enjoy \*it to be immoral. He is selfish and cares little for others outside his Family name but every awful thing he does is to further his power. Joffrey would torture someone because he liked to see someone scream in pain; Tywin would do it f it mean it would better the position of his family. That doesn’t make a difference to the person being tortured but it is a difference. I guess I should not have said Tywin isn’t immoral but I believe is is definitely amoral. Morality doesn’t matter at all to him. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/109 "2014-05-12T20:15:36Z")
I was thinking about how ruinously expensive it’s been for Tywin to acquire and keep the throne and how expensive it’s going to be for Stannis to fight for it. So what’s the payoff of becoming the ruler of Westeros? Perhaps if one can stay on the throne without active opposition/rebellion, one can demand regular payments from the various castles in Westeros? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/110 "2014-05-12T20:17:51Z")
> [@Red\_Barchetta](#): > > Ned aside, who else have they gotten rid of that was THAT popular? Joffrey’s probably the closest, but in the “love to hate” camp. Maester Luwyn a.k.a. The Grandpa None Of Us Had, Drogo, Syrio Forell, Cat, Lord Mormont, Robert… > [@](#): > > I don’t think anyone really cared that much about Robb Stark and his crew very much. I… what ? Talysa wasn’t all the rage but after Ned’s death Robb pretty much became “The Protagonist” to most people who still hadn’t grokked the show they were watching. Now I guess Jon’s the one. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/111 "2014-05-12T20:24:37Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I was thinking about how ruinously expensive it’s been for Tywin to acquire and keep the throne and how expensive it’s going to be for Stannis to fight for it. So what’s the payoff of becoming the ruler of Westeros? … you become the ruler. There’s a throne attached, although it’s not very comfy. But the crown’s bling as hell ! Seriously though, why have ambitious folks ever sought power ? I mean, you couldn’t get me to run for President for a big clock. I simply do not get people who might even want to, let alone want it enough to even _try_. But some do. More power and grey hair to them. [QUOTE=Quimby] He is selfish and cares little for others outside his Family name but every awful thing he does is to further his power. Joffrey would torture someone because he liked to see someone scream in pain; Tywin would do it f it mean it would better the position of his family. That doesn’t make a difference to the person being tortured but it is a difference. [/QUOTE] Well, at the risk of Godwinning the thread, I don’t think Hitler cared all that much that Europe suffered \*very \*much, as long as it meant a better position for Germany, y’know ? ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/112 "2014-05-12T20:28:37Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Bronn didn’t tell Jamie that he wasn’t allowed to visit Tyrion, Pod told Tyrion that Bronn wasn’t allowed to visit him. Didn’t both happen? I do remember Pod telling Tyrion Bronn wasn’t allowed to see him now that you mention it, but I also remember the scene where Bronn and Jamie discussed seeing Tyrion. Something like Bronn says “You haven’t been to see Tyrion yet?” And Jamie replies along the lines of “Have you?” and Bronn answers “They won’t let me, but you’re his brother.” Something like that, I think. ---
**Author:** ![Nothar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Nothar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nothar)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/113 "2014-05-12T20:31:05Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I don’t think we were meant to understand what she was thinking. But they showed us her face two or three times for a reason. I got the impression that the camera kept cutting to show Margaery because she knows her grandmother was the one who actually poisoned Joffrey (as we learned a couple weeks ago) and was concerned that the Tyrells might somehow be implicated once she saw that the necklace had been found that held the poison. She also was probably pretty uncomfortable at watching what she knew to be an innocent man being railroaded to a likely execution for a crime that her family committed. While Margaery has always wanted to be the Queen, she seems to have a decent heart (if somewhat conniving), so was likely conflicted watching the trial - she does not want her grandmother implicated, but she also does not want to see an innocent man die for her grandmother’s crime. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Barchetta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/da6949/32.png) [@Red\_Barchetta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Barchetta)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/114 "2014-05-12T20:44:13Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Maester Luwyn a.k.a. The Grandpa None Of Us Had, Drogo, Syrio Forell, Cat, Lord Mormont, Robert… None of which I’d argue (Ned aside, as I’ve mentioned) were anywhere close to Tyrion-levels of popularity. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/115 "2014-05-12T20:47:52Z")
> [@Red\_Barchetta](#): > > None of which I’d argue (Ned aside, as I’ve mentioned) were anywhere close to Tyrion-levels of popularity. Well…Who is? ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/116 "2014-05-12T20:49:12Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I… what ? Talysa wasn’t all the rage but after Ned’s death Robb pretty much became “The Protagonist” to most people who still hadn’t grokked the show they were watching. Now I guess Jon’s the one. I’m not sure i agree, i think for most people after they realized it was never about Ned the protagonists became Tyrion, Dany and maybe Jon. Robb would be a distant fifth after Arya. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Barchetta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/da6949/32.png) [@Red\_Barchetta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Barchetta)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/117 "2014-05-12T20:50:47Z")
> [@Meatros](#): > > Well…Who is? That’s kind of my point. With that said, I’d place Arya up there too as one I’d truly be surprised if they perished anytime soon for similar reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/118 "2014-05-12T20:51:20Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Tywin is extremely wise and his integrity is impeccable. I’ll paraphrase Tyrion: we’re not questioning Tywin’s integrity. We’re denying its existence. [But I suppose it depends on what you mean by integrity.](https://www.google.com/#q=integrity) If you mean he’s a moral man who tries to do the honorable thing and deals with everyone fairly, an example for others, then it’s totally absurd. If you mean he has not been divided into multiple pieces, you are correct. (Then again, that may be temporary. It’s Game of Thrones.) Tywin is rational and logical except where Tyrion is concerned. He’s flexible. He never deviates from his goals and for the most part he’s unapologetic about what he’s doing, and those could all be viewed as positives. But I wouldn’t call that integrity. It’s more like a combination of determination and not giving a crap. Ruthless, I think, is the best word. He has not one ruth. > [@](#): > > Moreover, he serves a greater good, not only his family line, but the kingdom itself. He doesn’t give a fuck for the kingdom. His family just happens to live there. To the extent his actions benefit their subjects, that’s because if the peasants are starving or the Iron Bank doesn’t get paid or the nobles get too angry, his family will get overthrown and murdered. > [@](#): > > But there’s a kind of moral soundness to him. He’s not just “out for number one,” and the ideals (yes, ideals!) that guide him are “good-in-theory” enough to make him feel like a moral character to me, not an im- or a-moral one. I’ve been saying for a while that Tywin’s perspective is understandable in this medieval world. He’s right to put his family first, to be reluctant to trust anybody - I mean, if you were Tywin and you knew how untrustworthy _you_ were, would you trust anyone? - and to always take the long view and not get too satisfied with himself. He’s living in a brutal place where the strong take what they can and most people have no sympathy for the weak. So if he wants his family to be safe, they need to have as much power as they possibly can. Anything else and they will ultimately be at the mercy of somebody else. > [@Meatros](#): > > Is that the group that Arya was briefly with? The one with the guy who’s died something like 6 times? Yes. > [@](#): > > I wonder if he’s going to act like his old confident self… I’m also wondering how that’s going to work out with Yara seeing him and declaring him dead. It’ll be interesting. I’m not sure if Yara will be there, but it does make sense for her to retreat there. > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I was thinking about how ruinously expensive it’s been for Tywin to acquire and keep the throne and how expensive it’s going to be for Stannis to fight for it. So what’s the payoff of becoming the ruler of Westeros? Perhaps if one can stay on the throne without active opposition/rebellion, one can demand regular payments from the various castles in Westeros? What, all that power isn’t enough? You get to live in luxury when most people are dirt farmers and goatherds, so that’s nice. And yes, you take money from the nobles. The deal is that you let them stay in power and they pay you tribute in return. That’s where the money for the castle and the nice clothes and the name day tournaments comes from. If you want the Iron Bank to back your rebellion, they make you a loan and all of Westeros pitches in to pay it back. If you had so much money you could fund a whole rebellion on your own, you wouldn’t need the Iron Bank. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/119 "2014-05-12T20:53:42Z")
> [@Meatros](#): > > Well…Who is? Well, I’d even argue that Tyrion’s popularity is higher than Ned’s ever was. Ned’s death served an important series-long point to start the whole ball rolling. Tyrion’s death at this point would have fewer meaningful consequences than his survival ever would. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/120 "2014-05-12T21:10:24Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Tywin is extremely wise and his integrity is impeccable. Moreover, he serves a greater good, not only his family line, but the kingdom itself. I’m a minority of one, but I do give him more moral credit than you guys. I think Tywin is a moral person in his own right, but as the hand of the king as well as the patriarch of the lanisters, morality is a luxury. I am thinking of when he set up shop at Harrenhall and put a stop to the torture of the smiths, and then the continuation of Arya’s education when she ended up being his cup bearer. It seems to me that what he has done, is to setup a trial for Tyrion, and stacking the deck with Shae, that pushes Tyrions buttons, who then opts for a trial by combat. So the Champion is going to be none other than Mountain, Tywin has this little political problem with Oberon , who wants revenge. If the mountain wins, then he sweeps both Tryion and Oberon off the board, while keeping his promise to Jaime, since it was not Tywins “fault” that Tryion went over board, and at the same time keeps Cersei happy, not that I think that he thought twice about what she thinks, but its a freebie. If Oberon wins, his honor is satisfied, and Tryion gets to live a while longer, long term, no idea what might become of that. But I like how Tywin is using problems to solve other problems Declan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219.md?page=7)