# Game of Thrones 4.06 "The Laws of Gods and Men" 5/11/14 NO SPOILERS **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 11, 2014, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219 "2014-05-11T23:59:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/121 "2014-05-12T21:11:00Z")
re: trial by combat. Is the punishment for Tyrion death if his champion loses the fight? Is the fight a fight till death? Or can you lose without dying? If it’s a fight till death and Tyrion would also die as punishment, then the only way to ensure it’s not a fair fight _in Tyrion’s favor_ is to pick Jamie. I don’t think Tywin would allow his only two male heirs to die if there’s something he can do about it. And I’m sure there’s something he can do about it. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/122 "2014-05-12T22:53:25Z")
I have no idea, but if I were to set up a Trial By Combat system that allowed champions, my rules would be: 1. If you personally fight, you fight to the death. 2. If a champion fights for you, he can submit during the fight without dying, but if he loses either by dying or submitting, the accused is sentenced to death. In both cases I would let the judges override the death sentence. As in, if you fight for yourself and your opponent brutally maims you (lose an eye or two, arm chopped off, whatever) they could call the fight and you live the rest of your days in this punished state. Likewise, if your champion fails to win, you are sentenced to whatever sentence guilty carries with it. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Evil\_Prince\_Zorte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@The\_Evil\_Prince\_Zorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Evil_Prince_Zorte)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/123 "2014-05-13T00:15:21Z")
Historically it was something like this. If there is a trial by combat, someone has to die. There was one in England between some middle class types who decided to do trial by combat (one of the last) in full plate with greatswords. They didn’t know anything about fighting in armor and couldn’t hurt each other, fighting until they were exhausted. They reached a point where one could barely sit up in a chair and the other could only lie on the ground. The one on the ground was taken away and hanged. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/124 "2014-05-13T01:25:54Z")
Hey! Caitlyn’s on 24. ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/125 "2014-05-13T01:38:27Z")
I guess my point is that Tywin is evil but it is a different kind of evil than his grandson, for example, and “cruel” doesn’t seem to describe him. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/126 "2014-05-13T01:43:47Z")
There is a difference between ruthless and evil. Tywin isn’t going to destroy your family if you aren’t fucking with his. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/127 "2014-05-13T02:15:35Z")
I think you’re using a rather narrow definition of evil. ---
**Author:** ![Stowed\_Bob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stowed_bob/32/3312_2.png) [@Stowed\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stowed_Bob)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/128 "2014-05-13T03:02:58Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Shae, is Cercei’s gambit I think. It seems like a Tywin thing to do. Last whore Tyrion loved was bribed to be gang banged in front of him by Tywin. Tywin’s one weakness is needing to denigrate his son. I could see him unable to resist bending Shae to his side as the cherry on his sundae. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/129 "2014-05-13T03:31:31Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > The question I had about that scene is, didn’t she ever hear of appointing judges? I’m no expert, but if she has to hear 200+ cases per day herself, she’s not going to have much time for anything else. That scene was meant to show _Queen_ Daenerys getting used to the business of ruling. And she was hearing petitions, not judging court cases. That being said she’s going to have appoint officials to sort threw stuff and decide which ones are minor enough to be dealt with merely in her name instead of handling everything personally. > [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > He’s the ruler in the same way that Tommen is head of the Lannisters. Nitpick Tywin is the head of House Lannister; Tommen is head of House Baratheon. Meanwhile it looks as if the male members of House Tyrell are just there for show & breeding purposes while the women (or at least Olenna runs everything behind the scenes). > [@Oakminster](#): > > …Can’t say I’m impressed with the legal system here. No right to counsel, no right to cross examine witnesses. Even acting pro se, I think Tyrion would have shredded most of the witnesses against him had he been allowed to cross examine… Eh, it’s par for the course for this world. It was certainly fairer than anything Joffrey presided over. > [@Queen Tonya](#): > > …Also, I spent way too many minutes thinking about the logistics of erecting and maintaining that giant iron dude Stannis sailed under when they were going to the Iron Bank. That would be truly something to behold if it were real… See I was wondering how detailed it was under the kilt. 😉 > [@SenorBeef](#): > > The scene with Reek was horrifying… Otherwise if a trial is clearly not going your way, you might as well take your chances at a trial by combat at that point. That’s lots of people dying in unnecessary duels. The bath scene with Ramsey _bathing_ [del]Theon[/del] Reek and asking if he loved him was one of the most disturbing things on the show. I’m just relived we didn’t get a frontal shot. :eek: > [@Ambrosio\_Spinola](#): > > Sandor Clegane was his own champion in his trial by combat, which makes sense for him. I’m not sure if they’ve ever established that just anyone can name a champion, or if you have to have some sort of disability to invoke that rule. IIRC in Medieval England only invalids & women were allowed to nominate champions; able bodied men had to fight in person. If Westeros follows similar rules then presumably Tyrion counts as the former. > [@DigitalC](#): > > I don’t think Tywin would be in charge of the prosecution, that would be Cersei. I get the impression that while Cersei made the formal accusation there is no prosecutor per se & that role is combined with the judges. It seems to be closer to a purely inquisitorial system than the adversarial system. > [@Marley23](#): > > We got a handful of significant reaction shots of Margaery during the trial. Whatever happens, she’ll have something to do with it. Maybe she’ll try to persuade Tommen to intervene and grant mercy to Tyrion after the trial because she already knows he didn’t do it and that the Lannisters are even more rotten than she’d realized? Or maybe Ser Loras will be persuaded to fight? Whatever she’s feeling Margaery knows to keep her mouth shut for her own family’s sake. > [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > …But why let someone choose trial by combat once you’ve already spent so much time and effort on a courtroom proceeding?.. Because it’s a firmly entrenched right of the accused (or at least accused nobles), and denying the accused that right would be tantamount publically declaring that you lacked faith in the Gods to render justice (which is blasphemy). Plus it trial by combat is limited to nobles, and able bodied men have to fight in person it probably doesn’t come up that much. > [@Enderw24](#): > > …2) you’re guilty and maybe spend a few years in jail > … The idea of incarceration as a punishment in & of itself is a very modern idea; only about 200 yrs old. Historically prisons were for holding people awaiting trial or execution (or who needed to be contained, but were too useful/valuable to kill). Or for holding people while there were tortured. Crimes that were too petty to be punished with death were punished with things like fines, branding or other mutilation, not jail time. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/130 "2014-05-13T04:02:33Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > That scene was meant to show _Queen_ Daenerys getting used to the business of ruling. Exactly. And I’m very interested to see how that turns out and how it affects her. > [@](#): > > I get the impression that while Cersei made the formal accusation there is no prosecutor per se & that role is combined with the judges. It seems to be closer to a purely inquisitorial system than the adversarial system. That was how it looked to me. > [@](#): > > Whatever she’s feeling Margaery knows to keep her mouth shut for her own family’s sake. I don’t think she’s dumb enough to volunteer that she knows who did it, but I can imagine her intervening on Tyrion’s behalf and asking that Tommen spare him. ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_Prize](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@Sir\_Prize](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_Prize)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/131 "2014-05-13T04:08:56Z")
I just ran across [this clip](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFZen-XO5II)and realized that this is when Olenna found out that Littlefinger was the right person to solve her problem and that Sansa was what he would want out of the deal. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/132 "2014-05-13T07:07:37Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Ruthless, I think, is the best word. He has not one ruth. No ruth, no gold, not a single lonely fuck to give either. For a _de facto_ king, he’s surprisingly poor 🙂 [QUOTE=CoolHandCox] re: trial by combat. Is the punishment for Tyrion death if his champion loses the fight? Is the fight a fight till death? Or can you lose without dying? [/QUOTE] IANAWL, but Real World answer : ordeals by combat were not always to the death, particularly where champions were involved or the original offence wasn’t particularly grievous. Like regular duels, some were to the first blood, or until someone yielded. If the defendant lost, then the original verdict applied with a possible additional penalty for wasting God’s time and/or a harsher punishment since God just said he was guilty as hell. That being said, the question of champions is an interesting one here : technically in many jurisdictions where TbC existed only people who physically could not fight were really allowed one - women, cripples and such. But if you could fight at all, then both honour and God hisself dictated you were the one to duke it out. On the one hand, Tyrion can claim he’s a midget and thus can’t fight, like he did with Lysa. On the other hand, he’s demonstrated thrice now that he absolutely _can fight and kill people but good. So maybe Tywin will deny him the right to a champion on the grounds of Blackwater Bay and the old legal principle of quia sic dico_. ---
**Author:** ![Smid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/838e76/32.png) [@Smid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smid)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/133 "2014-05-13T12:44:19Z")
With the idea that Tyrion might be next because they kill off ‘the popular characters’, which I assume meant Ned, Rob and Mother, I’d say the big difference is that Tyrion not only knows the Game going on, but knows the game exists. I don’t think Ned or Rob had a clue. As for Shae, I’d say littlefinger was involved with her turn or even her placement. He’s engineering the self destruction of House Lannister, the same way he did House Stark. Baratheon next? ---
**Author:** ![oft\_wears\_hats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7993a0/32.png) [@oft\_wears\_hats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oft_wears_hats)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/134 "2014-05-13T13:02:20Z")
Great episode. Good setup for later and the trial itself was painful to watch. I definitely think that sending Tyrion to the Night’s Watch was Tywin’s plan all along. When Jaime was accusing Tywin of being willing to kill his son, Tywin replied “[he will be] punished accordingly.” Jaime offering to take his place as the family heir was just icing on the cake, and he did seem a bit shocked at how quickly Tywin agreed. I wonder if Jaime’s choice was easier now that Cersei has rejected him. I can’t help but think that Tyrion has a plan with the trial by combat. Even if it’s just a final act of defiance to his father. He’s probably also sick and tired of being Tywin’s pawn, and didn’t want to give him the clean dog show of a trial that the wanted. The abuse he hurled at the assembly made it look like he’s starting to crack under the pressure. I liked how Oberyn was actually performing a little cross examination of the witnesses. Not as much as I hoped, but he was the only participant who didn’t seem to have already made up his mind about Tyrion’s guilt. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/135 "2014-05-13T13:34:59Z")
> [@Smid](#): > > With the idea that Tyrion might be next because they kill off ‘the popular characters’, which I assume meant Ned, Rob and Mother, I’d say the big difference is that Tyrion not only knows the Game going on, but knows the game exists. I don’t think Ned or Rob had a clue. I don’t think it’s so much that Martin actively seeks out to kill off popular characters but rather characters don’t have “plot armor” and when put into a perilous situation, more often than not - whatever probably would happen does happen. There are no giant eagles to jump onto that carry you away safely to the next scene. If you get locked in a room with 30 crossbows aimed at your chest, you don’t tuck into a shoulder roll and evade the arrows. You get lit up. So does your mother. And your wife. And your unborn child. Arya seems to have a fair bit of plot armor going on but really I thought for sure that Tyrion was going to die because he was pretty much tied to the tracks. The trial by combat is a twist that’s rarely afforded other characters. Also, it wasn’t obvious to me at all that the shepherd brought in goat remains. I thought it was his kid. Where would he even get the charred bones of his goats? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/136 "2014-05-13T13:35:59Z")
> [@Sir\_Prize](#): > > I just ran across [this clip](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFZen-XO5II)and realized that this is when Olenna found out that Littlefinger was the right person to solve her problem and that Sansa was what he would want out of the deal. Nice catch. I’d mostly forgotten that. ---
**Author:** ![LouisMasure](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e9a140/32.png) [@LouisMasure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisMasure)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/137 "2014-05-13T13:37:06Z")
I would love to see Tyrion get away, join Daenerys’ camp, then … ride to King’s landing on the back of one of her dragons and go berserk on Tywin, Cercei and all the court, laughing and cursing them with Wagner’s Valkyrie playing in the background while dragon-fire turns the capital to ashes 😃 THE END ---
**Author:** ![bouv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc8723/32.png) [@bouv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bouv)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/138 "2014-05-13T13:38:44Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > On the one hand, Tyrion can claim he’s a midget and thus can’t fight, like he did with Lysa. On the other hand, he’s demonstrated thrice now that he absolutely \*can \*fight and kill people but good. Thrice? I only count two…one and a half, really. AFAIK, he was only in two battles. The first one was in season 1 right after he got the help of the hill clans. He was accidentally knocked out before the battle really started, so that doesn’t count. The second battle was Blackwater, and he got one kill because he led a sneak attack from behind, and then nearly died (though it was from one of his own men, but still.) ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/139 "2014-05-13T13:44:13Z")
> [@Sir\_Prize](#): > > I just ran across [this clip](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFZen-XO5II)and realized that this is when Olenna found out that Littlefinger was the right person to solve her problem and that Sansa was what he would want out of the deal. Thanks for that. “One doesn’t need to be clever for that - it’s all rather obvious, isn’t it?” No. ☹ I took that scene largely at face value when I first saw it. I believed both Olenna and Varys considered Sansa an innocent and wanted to protect her if they could. I mentioned earlier that I also took Varys at his word when he said he serves the realm and was sympathetic to both Ned and Tyrion when they were locked up. So I’m not sure what to make of Olenna’s seeming alliance with Littlefinger and selling out of Sansa, as well was Varys’s seeming betrayal of Tyrion. It’s not necessary for everyone to be that untrustworthy - we’ve had the duplicity thing made clear enough to us now. Perhaps Tywin insisted Varys speculate in his testimony, but it seems a little over-the-top. If you want mercy for someone convicted of regicide, you don’t suggest the motive was revenge for the death of an enemy, do you? As for the Littlefinger thing, I have a hard time believing Olenna would be foolish enough to trust Littlefinger. They both have totally different end games, unless he’s going to marry Margaery (the Lannisters are out, Tyrells are in). And if she is working with him because of the above scene, is Varys included, or did she take Varys’s information, ignore the part about Littlefinger being incredibly dangerous, and do the opposite of what he said? Re trials by combat in history, since God was supposed to cause the guilty party to lose, what happened if the wronged party lost but survived? Are there are any examples of people being open about their confusion that they know they were in the right, but God said they weren’t? Would they have to keep such things to themselves? And how many people actually believed that God really decided? According to the system, you should be able to go against an axe with a toothpick and come out victorious, if your cause is just. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/140 "2014-05-13T13:58:28Z")
> [@Smid](#): > > As for Shae, I’d say littlefinger was involved with her turn or even her placement. He’s engineering the self destruction of House Lannister, the same way he did House Stark. Baratheon next? Pure guess - after Bronn put Shae on the ship, I seem to recall Tywin saying to check all outgoing vessels. I wouldn’t be surprised to find that Bronn did what he said and that Tywin simply found her the ‘old-fashioned’ way - by having his navy board and search outgoing vessels. That said, I may be conflating Shae and Sansa, but I thought he was actively searching for both. I don’t see the Mountain showing up, as many seem to believe. Without Tywin’s $$$, I don’t think Bronn fights for Tyrion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219.md?page=8)