# Game of Thrones 4.06 "The Laws of Gods and Men" 5/11/14 NO SPOILERS **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 11, 2014, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219 "2014-05-11T23:59:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Mogle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mogle/32/12021_2.png) [@Mogle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mogle)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/141 "2014-05-13T13:58:35Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > Also, it wasn’t obvious to me at all that the shepherd brought in goat remains. I thought it was his kid. Where would he even get the charred bones of his goats? Then you must have looked away at the wrong moment, in the close up of the bones you could see what was unmistakably a goat’s skull, complete with fur and horns. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/142 "2014-05-13T14:12:02Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > I don’t think it’s so much that Martin actively seeks out to kill off popular characters but rather characters don’t have “plot armor” and when put into a perilous situation, more often than not - whatever probably would happen does happen. There are no giant eagles to jump onto that carry you away safely to the next scene. If you get locked in a room with 30 crossbows aimed at your chest, you don’t tuck into a shoulder roll and evade the arrows. You get lit up. So does your mother. And your wife. And your unborn child. Same thing, really. Who decided they would get locked in a room with 30 crossbows? ---
**Author:** ![Moonlitherial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4bbf92/32.png) [@Moonlitherial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonlitherial)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/143 "2014-05-13T14:15:10Z")
The dragon flamed the entire herd and then flew away with only one burning goat. I presume the shepherd brought in one of the other casualties to support his petition. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/144 "2014-05-13T14:17:12Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > Also, it wasn’t obvious to me at all that the shepherd brought in goat remains. I thought it was his kid. Where would he even get the charred bones of his goats? As Mogle said, there was a goat skull in there. But if you can’t get goat remains, how would he get kid remains? The dragon only grabbed one goat. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/145 "2014-05-13T14:30:06Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > The dragons are certainly growing fast… I think they’ve gotten past the stage where they’re vulnerable to a single crossbow bolt, barring a really miraculous shot right in the eye or something. Someone said something at one point that got me really thinking about timescales. Something referring to years. Due to the way we watch the show it can be easy to think it happens over quite a short period of time. I guess actually knowing how long has passed will get us into “not allowed in this thread” territory. > [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > (and anyone else recognize the lead banker as Mycroft Holmes from _Sherlock_?) For Brits like me he is actually one of the most well known people in the show, to the point where it almost felt like stunt casting. He was part of a comedy show called “The League of Gentlemen” that was so popular that it spawned a feature film, fronts many documentaries and not only has appeared in Doctor Who but also writes episodes. he has had quite an extensive and varied career, both as a performer and as a writer. To be honest, GoT really is quite an “oh that’s where they’ve got to” show for Brits. Oh it’s them from “Skins”, him from “Misfits” and whatnot. ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/146 "2014-05-13T14:31:40Z")
How did Sansa’s necklace with the poison end up back in Kings Landing? I missed something. ---
**Author:** ![Tarwater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9de0a6/32.png) [@Tarwater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tarwater)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/147 "2014-05-13T14:34:14Z")
> [@oft\_wears\_hats](#): > > I definitely think that sending Tyrion to the Night’s Watch was Tywin’s plan all along. When Jaime was accusing Tywin of being willing to kill his son, Tywin replied “[he will be] punished accordingly.” Jaime offering to take his place as the family heir was just icing on the cake, and he did seem a bit shocked at how quickly Tywin agreed. Oh, it absolutely was the plan all along. You could see the realization dawn on Jaime’s face almost immediately after the shock wore off – the sheepish, self-castigating expression of a man who made his wager before he knew the play. As far as Tywin goes, I think people are too blinkered by their skepticism to see that, just as he’s been saying all along, his only real motive is family. He had to hold Tyrion accountable for Joffrey’s death because Cersei had convinced the public that Tyrion was responsible. If he tried to shift the blame to another party, Cersei would foment discontent in the rabble, and the Lannisters’ reputations as fair and just rulers would suffer. Trying Tyrion and sending him to the Night Watch is probably the best compromise. It’s moot now, but I’m sure Tywin was already thinking about how best to manipulate the Night Watch into granting Tyrion special privileges. ---
**Author:** ![ctnguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@ctnguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ctnguy)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/148 "2014-05-13T14:34:57Z")
> [@CoolHandCox](#): > > How did Sansa’s necklace with the poison end up back in Kings Landing? I missed something. Littlefinger dropped it into the boat with Ser Dontos’ body, which presumably washed up on the shore somewhere near the city. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/149 "2014-05-13T14:48:22Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > For Brits like me he is actually one of the most well known people in the show, to the point where it almost felt like stunt casting. He was part of a comedy show called “The League of Gentlemen” that was so popular that it spawned a feature film, fronts many documentaries and not only has appeared in Doctor Who but also writes episodes. he has had quite an extensive and varied career, both as a performer and as a writer. > > To be honest, GoT really is quite an “oh that’s where they’ve got to” show for Brits. Oh it’s them from “Skins”, him from “Misfits” and whatnot. I heard a podcast with the writer of this episode and he mentioned that the banker’s character was written trying to channel the style and delivery of Gus Fring from Breaking Bad. After hearing that and re-watching the scene, it’s now unmistakable. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/150 "2014-05-13T14:51:19Z")
> [@bouv](#): > > Thrice? I only count two…one and a half, really. > > AFAIK, he was only in two battles. The first one was in season 1 right after he got the help of the hill clans. He was accidentally knocked out before the battle really started, so that doesn’t count. > > The second battle was Blackwater, and he got one kill because he led a sneak attack from behind, and then nearly died (though it was from one of his own men, but still.) There was also the skirmish with the hill clans waaaay back in season 1, where he bashed a guy’s brains in with a shield. Which, you gotta admit, is pretty metäl. [QUOTE=Bozuit] Re trials by combat in history, since God was supposed to cause the guilty party to lose, what happened if the wronged party lost but survived? Are there are any examples of people being open about their confusion that they know they were in the right, but God said they weren’t? Would they have to keep such things to themselves? And how many people actually believed that God really decided? According to the system, you should be able to go against an axe with a toothpick and come out victorious, if your cause is just. [/QUOTE] I don’t think I’ve ever run into any first hand accounts by a participant (and only a handful by third parties), but I guess they were about as confused as people are today who are 100% innocent, not even at the wrong place wrong time, but get convicted all the same. They can scream all they like, they’re still proper fucked. The question of whether people really did believe God was involved in the proceedings is more difficult to answer - the Judgement of God, as it was called here in France, was pretty much a “nobles only” affair and contrary to popular wisdom people in the High Middle Ages were not all that credulous, at least the higher ups who could be quite educated and sharp as diamond tacks (well, many were - there were also quite a few dumb bruisers among the lot, which is par for the course when force of arms is a way to reach social status :)). I suppose some did really believe, or at least were open to the idea, that God could make David vs. Goliath Part Deux happen at any time… but I expect they still mostly believed God was on the side of the big [del]battalions[/del]muscles. But it’s OK, because God wouldn’t have made the unrighteous mighty in the first place, right ? Stands to reason, ipso facto, QED ! ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/151 "2014-05-13T14:57:17Z")
> [@oft\_wears\_hats](#): > > I liked how Oberyn was actually performing a little cross examination of the witnesses. Not as much as I hoped, but he was the only participant who didn’t seem to have already made up his mind about Tyrion’s guilt. I think Tywin doesn’t know if Tyrion killed Joffrey. Thing is, he doesn’t give a shit. Joffrey was a pain and got in the way of Tywin ruling the kingdom. With someone being found guilty of the crime of regicide, regardless of the merits, they can put the whole awful mess behind them as a kingdom and move on with Tommen as their ruler. And the bonus is that the accused happens to be Tyrion who he’s always hated and who would be the one person to question Tywin’s authority and give opposing counsel to Tommen. So now he has a way to make sure he never sees Tyrion again by sending him to the Wall for the rest of his life. Everything’s coming up roses for dear old Tywin. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/152 "2014-05-13T15:02:27Z")
> [@oft\_wears\_hats](#): > > I definitely think that sending Tyrion to the Night’s Watch was Tywin’s plan all along. When Jaime was accusing Tywin of being willing to kill his son, Tywin replied “[he will be] punished accordingly.” Jaime offering to take his place as the family heir was just icing on the cake, and he did seem a bit shocked at how quickly Tywin agreed. That’s what happened. Jaime was trying to do something noble (and I think he did), but when Tywin accepted his offer so quickly, Jaime realized he’d planned the whole thing and wanted this exact outcome. But now Tywin has probably blown it. > [@Sir\_Prize](#): > > I just ran across [this clip](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFZen-XO5II)and realized that this is when Olenna found out that Littlefinger was the right person to solve her problem and that Sansa was what he would want out of the deal. > [@Bozuit](#): > > Thanks for that. > > “One doesn’t need to be clever for that - it’s all rather obvious, isn’t it?” > > No. ☹ > > I took that scene largely at face value when I first saw it. I believed both Olenna and Varys considered Sansa an innocent and wanted to protect her if they could. At the time we didn’t know Lady Olenna was a murderer. That conversation does sound very different at this distance and it’s a great find. Is she working with Varys to oppose Littlefinger? Did she realize Littlefinger could be a useful business partner? I think it could go either way, but the scene gives you the impression she’s conspiring with Varys. Of course, she could both work with Littlefinger to kill Joffrey and work with Varys to oppose Littlefinger. No, they’re not interested in protecting Sansa as such. > [@](#): > > I mentioned earlier that I also took Varys at his word when he said he serves the realm and was sympathetic to both Ned and Tyrion when they were locked up. So I’m not sure what to make of Olenna’s seeming alliance with Littlefinger and selling out of Sansa, as well was Varys’s seeming betrayal of Tyrion. It’s not necessary for everyone to be that untrustworthy - we’ve had the duplicity thing made clear enough to us now. He was sympathetic to the Starks, but so far he hasn’t stuck his neck out for anybody and I wouldn’t expect him to start now. He’s not a sentimental person. I think Varys and Olenna both accept that innocent people are going to die sometimes in the course of the whole Game of Thrones deal. It makes sense to save them if they are useful for one reason or another, but otherwise, saving all of these people would be a waste of your power. > [@](#): > > As for the Littlefinger thing, I have a hard time believing Olenna would be foolish enough to trust Littlefinger. They both have totally different end games, unless he’s going to marry Margaery (the Lannisters are out, Tyrells are in). They don’t trust each other. They worked together to kill Joffrey because they had a mutual interest in seeing him dead: Olenna didn’t want Margaery to marry Joffrey because he was a monster, and Littlefinger wanted to weaken the Lannisters and sow chaos. The only thing they need to trust is that they won’t screw up or spill the beans, and that’s not so hard to do. Each side knows the other is a competent killer, and they know that squealing would be suicidal. Eventually they’ll be done with each other. > [@Moonlitherial](#): > > The dragon flamed the entire herd and then flew away with only one burning goat. I presume the shepherd brought in one of the other casualties to support his petition. > [@Munch](#): > > As Mogle said, there was a goat skull in there. But if you can’t get goat remains, how would he get kid remains? The dragon only grabbed one goat. The other two dragons had to eat, too. Who says one of them didn’t drop a goat carcass? Or I suppose the goatherd could have gone to retrieve it later. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/153 "2014-05-13T15:24:04Z")
When Tyrion tells Pod that Varys might stand for him at his trial Pod tells him that he has already been called “as a witness for the Queen”, it was my understand that Cersei as the accuser would be the one putting together the prosecution, not Tywin. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/154 "2014-05-13T15:32:48Z")
As was stated before I don’t think they have an adversarial system. I don’t think that the phrase “Witness for the queen” necessarily has the specific technical meaning for them as it does to us. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/155 "2014-05-13T15:50:03Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > As was stated before I don’t think they have an adversarial system. I don’t think that the phrase “Witness for the queen” necessarily has the specific technical meaning for them as it does to us. Didn’t Tywin say “The crown may call it’s next witness”? It looks to me like normally each side can call it’s own witnesses to testify, and then the judges question the witness. Of course, Tywin is running the whole show this time so it doesn’t really matter. ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/156 "2014-05-13T15:53:15Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > Also, it wasn’t obvious to me at all that the shepherd brought in goat remains. I thought it was his kid. Where would he even get the charred bones of his goats? The giant horns didn’t give it away? ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/157 "2014-05-13T16:02:04Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > They don’t trust each other. They worked together to kill Joffrey because they had a mutual interest in seeing him dead: Olenna didn’t want Margaery to marry Joffrey because he was a monster, and Littlefinger wanted to weaken the Lannisters and sow chaos. The only thing they need to trust is that they won’t screw up or spill the beans, and that’s not so hard to do. Each side knows the other is a competent killer, and they know that squealing would be suicidal. Eventually they’ll be done with each other. It’s still a big gamble though, isn’t it? Littlefinger gaining anything seems to be everyone else’s loss, especially if you’re in the position the Tyrells are in. They’re not in trouble and don’t need to grab whatever life preserver is thrown to them. Olenna knows what happened when Ned Stark made a “secret” plan with Littlefinger (although I’m sure she considers herself less naive) and she knows that, at some point, the Tyrells are going to be in his crosshairs. After the Lannisters are out of the picture, the Tyrells are his only remaining internal obstacle. In fact, I’m not sure why she would need him at all, even if he weren’t so dangerous. Unless she already has a plan to betray him and sweep him off the board along with the Lannisters. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/158 "2014-05-13T16:10:16Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > It’s still a big gamble though, isn’t it? Littlefinger gaining anything seems to be everyone else’s loss, especially if you’re in the position the Tyrells are in. They’re not in trouble and don’t need to grab whatever life preserver is thrown to them. It’s a gamble worth taking if she wants to save her granddaughter from a psychopath, and it might just be an opportunity for advancement for the Tyrells. > [@](#): > > Olenna knows what happened when Ned Stark made a “secret” plan with Littlefinger (although I’m sure she considers herself less naive) Does she know that? I’m not sure anyone but Littlefinger and Ned knew about that arrangement. > [@](#): > > she knows that, at some point, the Tyrells are going to be in his crosshairs. After the Lannisters are out of the picture, the Tyrells are his only remaining internal obstacle. Yes, she would know that. And he would know that the Tyrells might want to get rid of him when he’s no longer of use to them. I don’t think that part of the deal is uncommon or far-fetched. It’s business, not friendship. > [@](#): > > In fact, I’m not sure why she would need him at all, even if he weren’t so dangerous. Perhaps he was the best way for her to get what she wanted. That’d be reason enough. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/159 "2014-05-13T16:12:00Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > The giant horns didn’t give it away? [I don’t want to know what kids look like where **pancakes** is from!](http://s22.postimg.org/5r17stqmp/Horns.png) ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-06-the-laws-of-gods-and-men-5-11-14-no-spoilers/688219/160 "2014-05-13T16:33:25Z")
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