# Game of Thrones 4.07 "Mockingbird" 5/18/14 \[no spoilers\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 18, 2014, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-07-mockingbird-5-18-14-no-spoilers/688683 "2014-05-18T18:40:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-07-mockingbird-5-18-14-no-spoilers/688683/181 "2014-05-22T03:58:04Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Have we ever seen it covered or locked? Or is it always an “accident” waiting to happen? IIRC the first time we saw the Moon Door it was closed until Lysa ordered it to be opened while explaining it’s purpose to Tyrion. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-07-mockingbird-5-18-14-no-spoilers/688683/182 "2014-05-22T03:59:40Z")
It’s called a moon “door”, if it was always open it would be a moon hole. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-07-mockingbird-5-18-14-no-spoilers/688683/183 "2014-05-22T04:38:37Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > It’s called a moon “door”, if it was always open it would be a moon hole. I think that’s going to be my new insult - “Hey, you freaking moonhole, watch where you’re driving!” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-07-mockingbird-5-18-14-no-spoilers/688683/184 "2014-05-22T05:19:47Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > I wonder what would happen to Tyrion if they both died in the ring. I’m guessing that wouldn’t be a win, but who knows. I’m thinking Oberyn will die in the combat, but Tyrion will leap into the ring and kill the Mountain in revenge with some Jedi/ninja move. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-07-mockingbird-5-18-14-no-spoilers/688683/185 "2014-05-22T05:31:32Z")
So those two guys trying to take down the Hound got the jump on him and were both armed. All they had to do was stab him in the back. And the plan they go with was “I’ll jump on his back and bite him, you supervise!” It was as strange to me as the lannister soldiers vs Oberyyn in the brothel, where one soldier decides not to use his free hand, and the other watches and waits long enough for Oberyyn to give some cock-eyed explanation why he should continue to stand there and do nothing. Ordinary folk are starting to look too mook-ish to me. Minor quibble though. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-07-mockingbird-5-18-14-no-spoilers/688683/186 "2014-05-22T06:14:12Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > So those two guys trying to take down the Hound got the jump on him and were both armed. All they had to do was stab him in the back. > And the plan they go with was “I’ll jump on his back and bite him, you supervise!” The guy who bit him was named “Biter”. I’m guessing he had issues. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-07-mockingbird-5-18-14-no-spoilers/688683/187 "2014-05-22T06:21:44Z")
I think they’ve spent far too much time developing Oberyn’s character to kill him before he even really does anything, but then again I thought a Mountain vs. Oberyn fight seemed to obvious. Since it’s happening, I look forward to seeing it develop. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-07-mockingbird-5-18-14-no-spoilers/688683/188 "2014-05-22T06:22:39Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Martin doesn’t kill people because they are good, he kills people because they make stupid decisions and put themselves into positions where most people would die. I think _even that_ is an attempt to look at things using fiction-trope logic, where not only does good usually prevail but deaths are usually deserved. For example, lots of people in retrospect will say Robb Stark was dumb for going to the red wedding. I doubt many were thinking that before the event. And I don’t see that he put himself at any more risk than any of the other major characters have at one time or another. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-07-mockingbird-5-18-14-no-spoilers/688683/189 "2014-05-22T06:27:22Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Martin doesn’t kill people because they are good, he kills people because they make stupid decisions and put themselves into positions where most people would die. We’ll see if that’s true next week. If it is, Oberyn is a goner and so is Tyrion. If Oberyn prevails, then Martin uses plot armor just like everybody else. There really isn’t any way to argue that Oberyn’s decision isn’t stupid or that he put himself in a position (duel with the Mountain?!) where most people would die. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-07-mockingbird-5-18-14-no-spoilers/688683/190 "2014-05-22T06:34:50Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > For example, lots of people in retrospect will say Robb Stark was dumb for going to the red wedding. Robb’s mistake was breaking his promise to marry a necessary (and vengeful) ally’s daughter. Put another way, he thought with his dick. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-07-mockingbird-5-18-14-no-spoilers/688683/191 "2014-05-22T06:51:33Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Robb’s mistake was breaking his promise to marry a necessary (and vengeful) ally’s daughter. Put another way, he thought with his dick. That’s a mistake indeed, but would it be reasonable to expect to die for that (along with much of your army)? Bearing in mind that that _wasn’t_ the reason he died – Frey’s secret alliance with the Lannisters is. And bearing in mind how unprecedented killing folk under guest rights appears to be? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-07-mockingbird-5-18-14-no-spoilers/688683/192 "2014-05-22T07:07:47Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > We’ll see if that’s true next week. If it is, Oberyn is a goner and so is Tyrion. If Oberyn prevails, then Martin uses plot armor just like everybody else. > > There really isn’t any way to argue that Oberyn’s decision isn’t stupid or that he put himself in a position (duel with the Mountain?!) where most people would die. Well we are led to believe Oberyn is a more than competent fighter and he has clearly thought about how to kill\* the Mountain for years. And while it’s foolish to go on a revenge quest, the Mountain is merely the first step on Oberyon’s aquest. Maybe it’s still"plot armor" but why would you waste so much time on the guy if you are just going to kill him off on job one. \*eta: he could cheat! Drug that big bastard before the fight. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-07-mockingbird-5-18-14-no-spoilers/688683/193 "2014-05-22T07:09:43Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > That’s a mistake indeed, but would it be reasonable to expect to die for that (along with much of your army)? Bearing in mind that that _wasn’t_ the reason he died – Frey’s secret alliance with the Lannisters is. And bearing in mind how unprecedented killing folk under guest rights appears to be? Neither Frey nor Bolton would have turned on Robb if the latter weren’t such a lousy politician. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-07-mockingbird-5-18-14-no-spoilers/688683/194 "2014-05-22T07:34:48Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Neither Frey nor Bolton would have turned on Robb if the latter weren’t such a lousy politician. Do we know that? In the case of Frey I don’t recall him stating that he turned against Robb because he broke the promise. As opposed to, say, just getting a really good offer from the Lannisters. And in Bolton’s case he said something like “He ignored my advice at every turn. If he’d listened to me…”. Now, even if the completion to that sentence was “…I would have remained loyal”, so what? Robb’s not obliged to listen to the advice of every advisor and things were going pretty well under Robb’s direction. Well…apart from the point where he executed Carstark (or however it’s spelled). But how would anyone have dealt with that? It’s not just the crime, but also carstark was openly questioning whether Robb had the balls to give him the execution both parties agreed he deserved. \ ---
**Author:** ![Critical1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Critical1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Critical1)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-07-mockingbird-5-18-14-no-spoilers/688683/195 "2014-05-22T08:04:48Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Martin doesn’t kill people because they are good, he kills people because they make stupid decisions and put themselves into positions where most people would die. We are just used to most writers saving good guys from those situations. This is just a straight up fight between two people, one of whom looks incredibly tough and the other we do not know too much about. Obiwan knows a remarkable amount about poisons, I suspect the Mountain is in for a less than clean fight. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-07-mockingbird-5-18-14-no-spoilers/688683/196 "2014-05-22T08:20:27Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > That’s a mistake indeed, but would it be reasonable to expect to die for that (along with much of your army)? Bearing in mind that that _wasn’t_ the reason he died – Frey’s secret alliance with the Lannisters is. And bearing in mind how unprecedented killing folk under guest rights appears to be? Neither of those things happen if Robb keeps his promise (actually his mother’s promise, but still). The Freys and Starks would have been allied by marriage, leaving no opening for the Lannisters to make a move. The original deal was Robb got to cross the river with his army in exchange for marrying a Frey daughter. Robb got the benefit of the bargain, then rendered himself incapable of lawfully paying the “debt”, pissing off Frey to the extent that the Red Wedding happened. Robb didn’t even have to be faithful to his Frey wife. He could have had all the mistresses/random hookups/whores/anything-but-a-non-Frey-wife he wanted, as long as a Frey Daughter got to be his wife. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-07-mockingbird-5-18-14-no-spoilers/688683/197 "2014-05-22T08:22:44Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > And in Bolton’s case he said something like “He ignored my advice at every turn. If he’d listened to me…”. Now, even if the completion to that sentence was “…I would have remained loyal”, so what? Robb’s not obliged to listen to the advice of every advisor and things were going pretty well under Robb’s direction. Actually, things were not going well at all. Robb may have won every battle he fought, but he was losing the war. Remember, he went to the Freys as part of a Hail Mary play to attack Casterly Rock, something he wouldn’t have considered if he hadn’t absolutely had to. If Robb hadn’t been seen as weak, the Red Wedding wouldn’t have happened. Nobody betrays a winner. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-07-mockingbird-5-18-14-no-spoilers/688683/198 "2014-05-22T08:49:44Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Neither of those things happen if Robb keeps his promise (actually his mother’s promise, but still). The Freys and Starks would have been allied by marriage, leaving no opening for the Lannisters to make a move. The original deal was Robb got to cross the river with his army in exchange for marrying a Frey daughter. Robb got the benefit of the bargain, then rendered himself incapable of lawfully paying the “debt”, pissing off Frey to the extent that the Red Wedding happened. Again, we don’t know that it was this sleight that meant that Frey turned against them. As for being allies in marriage, he wasn’t married yet. Maybe when Robb returned for his own marriage the ambush would’ve happened then? Killing someone just as your houses were going to be joined would be pretty awful but then so is murdering under guest rights. > [@Alessan](#): > > Actually, things were not going well at all. Robb may have won every battle he fought, but he was losing the war. Remember, he went to the Freys as part of a Hail Mary play to attack Casterly Rock, something he wouldn’t have considered if he hadn’t absolutely had to. The main cause of that problem was the Carstark treachery, but how could he have behaved differently? Let the guy live, you lose all discipline as no-one takes you seriously again. > [@](#): > > If Robb hadn’t been seen as weak, the Red Wedding wouldn’t have happened. Nobody betrays a winner. Or someone invited as a guest. Anyway, this is quite a hijack I’ve started. All I wanted to say was I don’t agree with the retrospective idea that all / most of the deaths are because people did something dumb. Westeros is dangerous, and humans are fragile. Most of the characters in the show have pissed someone powerful off at one point or another, and been at risk of assassination plenty of times. I don’t agree that there’s a strong correlation between death and stupidity in this series. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-07-mockingbird-5-18-14-no-spoilers/688683/199 "2014-05-22T11:19:03Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Again, we don’t know that it was this sleight that meant that Frey turned against them. > As for being allies in marriage, he wasn’t married yet. Maybe when Robb returned for his own marriage the ambush would’ve happened then? . Yes, he was married. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-07-mockingbird-5-18-14-no-spoilers/688683/200 "2014-05-22T11:34:22Z")
I don’t think the characters who die do so because they’re stupid, exactly, but because they made a bad decision (like everyone does now and then) and died for it, whereas in a lot of shows they’d live however unrealistic their survival is. I think Walder Frey’s anger definitely was due to the reneging on the promise. Note, he seems to have put Robb’s uncle, the one who did actually follow through with the wedding, out of harm’s way while killing the rest of the family. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-07-mockingbird-5-18-14-no-spoilers/688683.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-07-mockingbird-5-18-14-no-spoilers/688683.md?page=11)