# Game of Thrones 4.07 "Mockingbird" 5/18/14 \[no spoilers\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 18, 2014, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-07-mockingbird-5-18-14-no-spoilers/688683 "2014-05-18T18:40:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-07-mockingbird-5-18-14-no-spoilers/688683/221 "2014-05-22T19:08:15Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Sure there is, you have no idea how good a fighter he is. A duel is not a position were most people would die, its a position were half the people die. It was established that Oberyn is a legendary warrior back when Tyrion first met with the Dornish delegation at the beginning of the season. As for how true that is… well, I guess we’re about to find out. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-07-mockingbird-5-18-14-no-spoilers/688683/222 "2014-05-22T19:23:15Z")
> [@Death\_of\_Rats](#): > > …Actually, Oberyn’s plan is the smartest thing he could do. His entire stated reason for being there is to get revenge for his sister and her children. To do this he wants to kill the Mountain and Tywin Lannister. Now, he has the chance to kill the Mountain, humiliate Tywin while destrying all of his plans and do so in, as close as you can get in Westeros, a consequence-free environment. Oberyn gets everything he wants out of this. Exactly. Well said. > [@Death\_of\_Rats](#): > > …Does anyone else think… Brienne/Pod is going to start rivaling Hound/Arya for the best odd couple pairing on the show? Well, that’s a pretty high bar to clear, but I’d love to see 'em try! ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-07-mockingbird-5-18-14-no-spoilers/688683/223 "2014-05-22T19:31:57Z")
I did mean to say that I thought this was a very strong episode, and maybe the best of the season. The Hound is a great character and I was glad he had some more to do. It’s fine when he’s just growling one-liners at Arya, but he gained some more depth in this one. Sansa’s situation got a lot more interesting and now that Littlefinger seems to finally have her I want to know how it’s going to shake out. Tyrion’s scenes with Bronn and Oberyn were both outstanding. So there’s a lot to look forward to here. ---
**Author:** ![oft\_wears\_hats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7993a0/32.png) [@oft\_wears\_hats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oft_wears_hats)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-07-mockingbird-5-18-14-no-spoilers/688683/224 "2014-05-22T19:39:19Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > It was established that Oberyn is a legendary warrior back when Tyrion first met with the Dornish delegation at the beginning of the season. As for how true that is… well, I guess we’re about to find out. Yeah. Oberyn’s not stupid, and he certainly seems to think he can take The Mountain in a duel. He’s had many years to think about how he’d like to kill him, so I’m sure he’s got a plan. Bronn mentioned dancing around and waiting for The Mountain to tire out, and I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s going to figure into Oberyn’s tactics. Tywin also established that Oberyn is an expert in poisons, so perhaps he’ll lace his blade with something subtle to improve his chances. Probably not anything obvious that could risk voiding the trial by combat, but perhaps something that would speed the onset of The Mountain’s fatigue, or cloud his mind. Oberyn scores a few quick, glancing blows, then waits for the poison to do its work, then finishes him off. Given Oberyn’s hatred for The Mountain, I’m fully expecting Oberyn to make his punishment last as long as possible. Heck, he might just slash some tendons and cripple him for life. That’d be a pretty nasty fate for someone whose main claim to power is his ability to fight. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-07-mockingbird-5-18-14-no-spoilers/688683/225 "2014-05-22T20:54:20Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > The main cause of that problem was the Carstark treachery, but how could he have behaved differently? Let the guy live, you lose all discipline as no-one takes you seriously again. His mistake was protecting the Lannister children in the first place. If instead he’d publicly executed the captives, or maybe just given them to the Karstarks so they could take their own revenge, then he would likely have won the war. If he’d also not married the nurse but instead married the super hot Frey girl and took the nurse as a mistress, he’d be a beloved King in the North with enough power to rival the Iron Throne, which he probably wouldn’t even care about. His two mistakes were giving Lannisters quarter and reneging on his (mother’s) oath to marry a Frey daughter. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-07-mockingbird-5-18-14-no-spoilers/688683/226 "2014-05-22T20:57:20Z")
He could’ve let lord Karstark live. Keep him as a hostage to ensure his house’s continued support, then send him to the wall after the war as a suitable punishment. Like EVERYONE told him to do. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-07-mockingbird-5-18-14-no-spoilers/688683/227 "2014-05-22T21:13:14Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Again, we don’t know that it was this sleight that meant that Frey turned against them. Well we can’t say for sure if Frey would have turned against Rob anyway. But it certainly didn’t help. > [@Death of Rats](#): > > Braavos is the kind of place that does not need an army. If you show up to conquer them they just step out of the gate and buy your army out from under you. It also appears to be the birthplace of a lot of really good swordsmen and creepy face-changing assassins. > [@magnusblitz](#): > > I LOVE the new casting for the Mountain. The guy they had in Season 2 was far too skinny. This guy though… damn. Yeah, I didn’t even realize that was Clegane in Season 2. I thought it was just some guy. > [@Fear Itself](#): > > I’m thinking Oberyn will die in the combat, but Tyrion will leap into the ring and kill the Mountain in revenge with some Jedi/ninja move. I’m thinking from a story-telling perspective, we aren’t going to see the death of two interesting characters at the expense of one giant murderous goon with like 3 spoken lines in three seasons. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-07-mockingbird-5-18-14-no-spoilers/688683/228 "2014-05-22T21:24:30Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > His mistake was protecting the Lannister children in the first place. If instead he’d publicly executed the captives, or maybe just given them to the Karstarks so they could take their own revenge, then he would likely have won the war. It’s arguable that this was a mistake. He was faced with a difficult choice, and he bore the responsibility to dispense justice as a king. Things turned out bad for him, yes. But it wasn’t inevitable that Lord Karstark was going to commit murder in blind revenge. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-07-mockingbird-5-18-14-no-spoilers/688683/229 "2014-05-22T23:22:14Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > It’s arguable that this was a mistake. He was faced with a difficult choice, and he bore the responsibility to dispense justice as a king. Things turned out bad for him, yes. But it wasn’t inevitable that Lord Karstark was going to commit murder in blind revenge. It’s almost certainly the case that a more effective king would have been able to find a way to compromise or sell the situation so as to avoid giving such offense to important vassals. It’s not so much that one single thing that Robb did during that entire sequence was a dunderheaded maneuver, as it is that he was quite naive and politically idealistic, in general, which is a poor quality for a king to have in wartime. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-07-mockingbird-5-18-14-no-spoilers/688683/230 "2014-05-22T23:42:59Z")
The big mistake in that whole situation was letting Jamie go to get the Stark girls back. Executing Lord Stark for what he did while Cat got basically grounded for a while for completely sabotaging the war effort isn’t going to paint you as a paragon of justice. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2014, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-07-mockingbird-5-18-14-no-spoilers/688683/231 "2014-05-23T00:09:14Z")
Err i meant lord Karstark obviously. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2014, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-07-mockingbird-5-18-14-no-spoilers/688683/232 "2014-05-23T00:45:10Z")
It fits my theory that Catelyn Stark is to blame for everything. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2014, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-07-mockingbird-5-18-14-no-spoilers/688683/233 "2014-05-23T01:05:53Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > It fits my theory that Catelyn Stark is to blame for everything. This has been my theory for a long time. Every move she made was selfish, stupid and ruinous. ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_Prize](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@Sir\_Prize](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_Prize)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2014, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-07-mockingbird-5-18-14-no-spoilers/688683/234 "2014-05-23T02:43:54Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > This has been my theory for a long time. Every move she made was selfish, stupid and ruinous. Ned was stupid in a noble way. She really was just stupid. Letting Jaime go. 😕 I hope that decision made more sense in the b–k because it just seemed silly on screen. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2014, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-07-mockingbird-5-18-14-no-spoilers/688683/235 "2014-05-23T03:21:42Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > He could’ve let lord Karstark live. Keep him as a hostage to ensure his house’s continued support, then send him to the wall after the war as a suitable punishment. Like EVERYONE told him to do. But like I say, Karstark was taunting him that he didn’t have the balls to carry out the execution they both agreed he deserved. He was saying stuff like “Gonna give me a slap on the wrist?” So I don’t see the letting him live being tenable either. If there’s a third option, fair enough, but I haven’t heard anyone suggest one (Cut fingers off, like the onion knight? It’s one thing doing that to a smuggler, we don’t know enough about Westeros to know how it would go down doing that to a Lord for the crime of murder). ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2014, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-07-mockingbird-5-18-14-no-spoilers/688683/236 "2014-05-23T04:56:43Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > The guy who bit him was named “Biter”. I’m guessing he had issues. His real name was Hannibal. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2014, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-07-mockingbird-5-18-14-no-spoilers/688683/237 "2014-05-23T13:48:26Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > It’s arguable that this was a mistake. He was faced with a difficult choice, and he bore the responsibility to dispense justice as a king. Things turned out bad for him, yes. But it wasn’t inevitable that Lord Karstark was going to commit murder in blind revenge. The problem with Robb was that he was trying to achieve two goals, get his sisters back and win the war. His mother was only concerned about the girls and having her as an advisor only made it worse. He needed to understand that if you are fighting a war winning has to be the only goal and whatever and whoever he needs to sacrifice to win needs to be sacrificed. He should have married the Frey girl cause it would have helped him win the war, he should have killed Jaime because it would have helped him win the war, and he should have spared Karstark because it would have helped him win the war. Individually those were all defensible but they all showed he was not as interested in winning as Tywin was and that is what defeated him. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-07-mockingbird-5-18-14-no-spoilers/688683.md?page=11)