# Game of Thrones 4.08 "The Mountain and the Viper" 6/1/14 \[no spoilers\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 2, 2014, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809 "2014-06-02T03:04:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/181 "2014-06-03T13:49:21Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Granny Tyrell told Margaery flat out that Tyrion was innocent. Not quite the same as Marg herself knowing first-hand, but I’m sure that’s what’s being referred to. I’m aware. What _I’m_ referring to is that there’s no reason to think Marg would step up to the plate for Tyrion even though she knows he’s innocent. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/182 "2014-06-03T13:50:40Z")
> [@interface2x](#): > > By the end, Oberyn had a crush, too. A pretty massive one. **My name is Oberyn Martell, you raped and killed my sister, prepare to** _\ \ \_ **aaaiiiiiiyyy!** _\_ ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/183 "2014-06-03T13:55:03Z")
> [@voltaire](#): > > From \*your \*perspective she’s a broken psychopath. In the “real” world of Westeros, she’s remarkably well adapted, which will only help her avoid getting _physically_ broken, like much of her family already has. I wouldn’t call Arya a “psychopath”. A psychopath has no emotions and can’t maintain personal relationships, like The Mountain. Arya was very protective of her friends Gendry and Hot Pie. She even shows concern about The Hound’s wound. A psychopath wouldn’t act like that. In many ways Arya is similar to The Hound. They both had very traumatic childhoods. This, plus the brutal environment in which they live have turned them into cynical, efficient, sometimes amoral killers. But neither characters are portrayed as evil or wantonly cruel. > [@oft wears hats](#): > > At first, I thought perhaps Oberyn didn’t wear a helmet because it affected his perception. Interesting post/user-name combo.😃 Given the power of The Mountain, a helmet wouldn’t protect Oberyn’s head. It would be the other way around. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/184 "2014-06-03T14:03:22Z")
> [@voltaire](#): > > From \*your \*perspective she’s a broken psychopath. In the “real” world of Westeros, she’s remarkably well adapted, which will only help her avoid getting _physically_ broken, like much of her family already has. I’m pretty sure “the only thing I enjoy any more is watching people die” is a messed up thing to say, much less live, even by Westeros standards :). > [@](#): > > The most likely outcome of her supposed “promise of safety and comfort” at The Vale is being forced to marry Robin “Make them fly!” Arryn. So, yeah, no. She doesn’t know that, or him. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/185 "2014-06-03T14:03:23Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Do people in Westeros have soft skulls or something? Because it seems ridiculously easy to pierce people’s heads with swords, spears and arrows or to even crush someone’s head with your bare hands… But I’m not sure it’s possible to crush a mans head like that. Ever see _The Walking Dead_? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Fornicator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@The\_Fornicator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Fornicator)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/186 "2014-06-03T14:05:35Z")
Fwiw, I think Arya is simply in survival mode. Not eveyone can access that from within but she has in buckets. Every now and then she calls The Hound out on his behaviour (like stealing the crofters stash after he’d offered them a meal and his barn) so I suspect this experience will shape her to some extent, but I doubt it will define her. In fact, you could argue all three Stark’s are pretty expert in survival mode. ---
**Author:** ![Sparky812](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Sparky812](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparky812)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/187 "2014-06-03T14:13:46Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > I didn’t take The Mountain’s temporary incapacitation to be a ploy. I think he was stunned or temporarily knocked unconscious or perhaps unable to breathe and gather his strength, and he probably attacked as soon as he came to or otherwise became able. I don’t think there’s any way to say for sure, we don’t see his face during this part, just a body that isn’t moving. I disagree. The Mountain had exhausted all of his overpowering brute strength tactics and was injured quite severely. He also realized that Oberyn would not come close enough for him to take advantage of his size and strength. He is a massive heavily armoured man and it’s possible the wound to his chest was not as severe as it looked. It may have been a last resort or a seized opportunity but it was a perfect ploy to draw Oberyn into a false sense of victory and step into his striking range. Secondly, he gives the confession that Oberyn was persistently demanding as he crushes his skull which proves he was actually listening to what was going on around him and not unconscious. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/188 "2014-06-03T14:14:50Z")
> [@The\_Fornicator](#): > > In fact, you could argue all three Stark’s are pretty expert in survival mode. It’s a self-selecting sample. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Fornicator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@The\_Fornicator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Fornicator)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/189 "2014-06-03T14:15:37Z")
fair point! ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/190 "2014-06-03T14:16:40Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > I’m aware. What _I’m_ referring to is that there’s no reason to think Marg would step up to the plate for Tyrion even though she knows he’s innocent. And in case my tone came across poorly, I wasn’t trying to be abrasive. But this is a world of survivors. People like Ned Stark are rare and I don’t see Marg stepping in for Tyrion in a hundred years. ---
**Author:** ![PookahMacPhellimey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pookahmacphellimey/32/3175_2.png) [@PookahMacPhellimey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PookahMacPhellimey)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/191 "2014-06-03T14:28:58Z")
> [@interface2x](#): > > by the end, oberyn had a crush, too. A pretty massive one. _sob_ _wail_ ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/192 "2014-06-03T14:39:18Z")
It did come off as abrasive. We’re just spitballing ideas and speculating. I don’t think it’s going to happen, but if it did I wouldn’t be shocked. The show went through a lot of effort to show Margery being uncomfortable at the trial, she has a mission to get to Tommen under her sway which means driving a wedge between him and Cersie and if the Mountain dies someone should/would bring up the possible legalities of what DO the gods want if both champions die. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Fornicator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@The\_Fornicator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Fornicator)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/193 "2014-06-03T14:48:26Z")
The Mountain was skewered. Ain’t no way back. Thus the Gods delivered a kind of hung jury. I’d guess, as a compromise, the little feller must head for the wall. ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/194 "2014-06-03T14:53:04Z")
That would be an interesting contrast with the previous young king. The official sentence against Ned was that he would be sent to the Wall, but Joffrey decreed that he would be beheaded instead. The official sentence against Tyrion is that he is to be beheaded. Perhaps Tommen will decree that he will be sent to the Wall instead. I don’t think that will happen though. My money is on Tyrion being killed. A last-minute rescue / pardon could happen, but that seems rather unlikely. The show runners even gave the character (and actor) a few wonderful “good bye” speeches in the previous episode. I think we’ll get another good speech out of Tyrion as a way of giving the character a final farewell, then he will go the way of all beetles. Of course, I could be wrong. One thing I love about the show is that such a major, well-liked character _could_ be killed off. There’s no guarantee either way. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/195 "2014-06-03T14:59:05Z")
> [@The\_Fornicator](#): > > The Mountain was skewered. Ain’t no way back. Thus the Gods delivered a kind of hung jury. > > I’d guess, as a compromise, the little feller must head for the wall. The way I see it, Oberyn was there as Tyrion’s proxy. That means whatever happens to the former, happens to the latter. The Mountain’s fate is irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Fornicator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@The\_Fornicator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Fornicator)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/196 "2014-06-03T15:01:57Z")
It’s not irrelevant in terms of interpreting the God’s intentions - what do the Gods mean by both champions being slayed … ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/197 "2014-06-03T15:06:07Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I’m pretty sure “the only thing I enjoy any more is watching people die” is a messed up thing to say, much less live, even by Westeros standards :). She didn’t actually say “only” though. She said “Lots of things make me happy.” Then, yes, proceeded to mention the people’s she’s killed, since vengeance is her primary driving force and what allows her carry on in the face of adversity. And it’s not just watching \*any \*“people” die, it’s watching people _on her list_ die, preferably by her hand. > [@](#): > > She doesn’t know that, or him. My pointing out her most likely fate at The Vale was in response to you suggesting that her heading there made her feel the “promise of safety and comfort.” My point was that she’s neither interested nor naive enough for that. And the fact that she doesn’t know what likely awaits her there, yet still doesn’t seem to be looking forward to it, \*\*proves my point completely because she is RIGHT to feel that way. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/198 "2014-06-03T15:07:20Z")
> [@oft\_wears\_hats](#): > > Still, helmet or no, his fatal mistake was clearly easing up on The Mountain so he could confess before Oberyn killed him. If he’d just pressed the attack, he wouldn’t have needed the helmet or a closed-casket funeral. The thing is, Oberyn’s goal was not to win the fight and save Tyrion. His goal was to avenge his sister and get the confession. He was doing exactly what he came to do. In his eyes, if he’d pressed the attack and finished off Clegane, he’d have _failed his mission._ He was absolutely prepared to die before giving up and conceding. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/199 "2014-06-03T15:09:16Z")
> [@The\_Fornicator](#): > > It’s not irrelevant in terms of interpreting the God’s intentions - what do the Gods mean by both champions being slayed … It depends on what the law says, and as usual, nobody’s bothered to explain it to us. In our world, yes, it sounds like if both people died you had the equivalent of a not guilty verdict or a hung jury. Without waiting for The Mountain to die, Tywin Lannister says Tyrion is going to be executed. Who’s going to argue with him? The only person in position to do so in theory is Tommen. Or Jaime could help Tyrion escape, but then he’d be disowned. ---
**Author:** ![SuperNelson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@SuperNelson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuperNelson)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/200 "2014-06-03T15:11:16Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > I’m aware. What _I’m_ referring to is that there’s no reason to think Marg would step up to the plate for Tyrion even though she knows he’s innocent. Innocent’s got nothing to do with it; if Tyrion dies, Margery will be completely at the nonexistent mercy of Cersei. If Tyrion lives, he will make it his mission to take down Cersei. Margery needs an ally, and Tyrion’s her best choice - particularly if he owes her his life. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809.md?page=11)