# Game of Thrones 4.08 "The Mountain and the Viper" 6/1/14 \[no spoilers\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 2, 2014, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809 "2014-06-02T03:04:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/201 "2014-06-03T15:15:36Z")
Margery is too smart to be at Cersei’s mercy. She’s already started to manipulate Tommen and will continue to do so so that he does her bidding and not his mother’s, whether or not Cersei is Queen Regent. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/202 "2014-06-03T15:18:30Z")
> [@SuperNelson](#): > > Innocent’s got nothing to do with it; if Tyrion dies, Margery will be completely at the nonexistent mercy of Cersei. If Tyrion lives, he will make it his mission to take down Cersei. Margery needs an ally, and Tyrion’s her best choice - particularly if he owes her his life. How would Marg be at Cersei’s mercy? With Joff’s death and Tywin taking control of the new king Cersei’s power has been neutered. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/203 "2014-06-03T15:22:22Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > How would Marg be at Cersei’s mercy? With Joff’s death and Tywin taking control of the new king Cersei’s power has been neutered. And even if she hadn’t been neutered the Tyrells have just as much power in that relationship as the Lannisters. Margaery is not Sansa. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/204 "2014-06-03T15:29:09Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Margery is too smart to be at Cersei’s mercy. She’s already started to manipulate Tommen and will continue to do so so that he does her bidding and not his mother’s, whether or not Cersei is Queen Regent. I think perhaps we’re assuming that Tommen can only be under the influence of one person. That’s not really true. We have at least three people competing to get the last word in his ear, and Margaery has only just started to work her way in. She’s up against Tommen’s powerful grandfather and his mother. ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/205 "2014-06-03T15:48:26Z")
> [@Garula](#): > > The series is very short on likable protagonists and while it’s dark, I don’t think it would be wise to get so dark as to have the show be completely dominated by people the audience doesn’t care if they live or die. That’s one of the best things about this show. It’s hand isn’t guided by audience approval, character popularity, or meddling producers. It’s going off of GRRM’s storyline and is at it’s mercy. Wheras a modern TV show written by screen writers who are directed by producers would never do something like kill off an immensely talented actor like Peter Dinklage who’s character everyone loves and is rooting for since it might affect ratings, the GOT sort of has to follow the GRRM storyline. If Tyrion dies next week because that’s how GRRM wrote it HBO is stuck with it whether they like it or not. Makes for some great TV. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/206 "2014-06-03T15:53:58Z")
I’m a little confused about everyone who’s wondering what the results mean if both champions die, or what Tyrion’s sentence will be. We already saw it - Tywin immediately sentenced him to death. He didn’t wait to see if the Mountain died, or hesitate about the punishment of the verdict. The guy in charge says Tyrion dies. Speculation that Tommen may commute the sentence makes sense, but wondering about what the actual sentence is is pointless - we know that. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Bird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Little\_Bird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Bird)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/207 "2014-06-03T15:58:36Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I think perhaps we’re assuming that Tommen can only be under the influence of one person. That’s not really true. We have at least three people competing to get the last word in his ear, and Margaery has only just started to work her way in. She’s up against Tommen’s powerful grandfather and his mother. Yeah, but Margaery has Tommen’s brand new baby-deer-with-wobbly-legs boner in her manicured fist (metaphorically, that is) and I’m pretty sure for a young man “Lady who gives me my first boner” vs “Mom and Grandpa” is an easy decision. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/208 "2014-06-03T16:00:50Z")
> [@Little\_Bird](#): > > Yeah, but Margaery has Tommen’s brand new baby-deer-with-wobbly-legs boner in her manicured fist (metaphorically, that is) and I’m pretty sure for a young man “Lady who gives me my first boner” vs “Mom and Grandpa” is an easy decision. Well, that’s what I’ve been saying- I think she can manipulate (hmm) Tommen into letting Tyrion live if that’s what she wants to do. People are right that Tywin and Cersei are also trying to get their claws into Tommen. I’m saying it’s not all one or the other. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/209 "2014-06-03T16:01:27Z")
> [@Little\_Bird](#): > > Tommen’s brand new baby-deer-with-wobbly-legs boner in her manicured fist (metaphorically, that is) Your command of metaphor there is breathtaking! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/210 "2014-06-03T16:11:12Z")
> [@JSexton](#): > > The thing is, Oberyn’s goal was not to win the fight and save Tyrion. His goal was to avenge his sister and get the confession. This episode was the first time I recall him wanting a confession. He has always been fixated on killing The Mountain. ---
**Author:** ![oft\_wears\_hats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7993a0/32.png) [@oft\_wears\_hats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oft_wears_hats)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/211 "2014-06-03T16:11:48Z")
> [@JSexton](#): > > The thing is, Oberyn’s goal was not to win the fight and save Tyrion. His goal was to avenge his sister and get the confession. He was doing exactly what he came to do. In his eyes, if he’d pressed the attack and finished off Clegane, he’d have _failed his mission._ He was absolutely prepared to die before giving up and conceding. That’s a fair point, but in that case, Oberyn’s fatal mistake was to underestimate The Mountain and get within striking distance of him before the fight was over. He was using words and a spear, both of which could have been employed without getting within arm’s reach of his opponent. He can’t get a confession if he’s dead (or while he’s being made dead, as the case was). Also, do you really think that Oberyn would have preferred letting that monster stay alive rather than putting him down sans confession? > [@SenorBeef](#): > > I’m a little confused about everyone who’s wondering what the results mean if both champions die, or what Tyrion’s sentence will be. We already saw it - Tywin immediately sentenced him to death. He didn’t wait to see if the Mountain died, or hesitate about the punishment of the verdict. The guy in charge says Tyrion dies. > > Speculation that Tommen may commute the sentence makes sense, but wondering about what the actual sentence is is pointless - we know that. Not necessarily. As has already been speculated, Margaery (or someone else) may use the fact that both champions died as leverage to alter the sentence. It may even be that in Westoros both champions dying is a not-guilty verdict, and Tywin is jumping the gun. We simply don’t have enough information yet. Cutting off at Tywin’s sentencing is a great cliffhanger, but I’ll be a little disappointed if the resolution comes 30 seconds later at the start of the next episode. That kind of crap is expected from J.J Abrams, but I expect more from the GoT showrunners. ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/212 "2014-06-03T16:24:40Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > This episode was the first time I recall him wanting a confession. He has always been fixated on killing The Mountain. I think it was a generally accepted “rumor” that the Mountain killed the prince and princess and then raped and murdered the old queen. He wanted it stated as fact and part of his demand was for the Mountain to admit that TYWIN ordered it–or at least gave him permission. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/213 "2014-06-03T16:34:10Z")
> [@Push\_You\_Down](#): > > I think it was a generally accepted “rumor” that the Mountain killed the prince and princess and then raped and murdered the old queen. Elia Martell was not the queen. She was wife of the crown prince, Rhaegar Targaryen, Daenerys’s eldest brother. ---
**Author:** ![Meloy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/58f4c7/32.png) [@Meloy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meloy)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/214 "2014-06-03T16:34:20Z")
> [@BlackKnight](#): > > There aren’t very many truly noble Nobles in Westeros. And those Lords or Ladies who are noble tend not to be very powerful (for example, Sansa is a decent person, but also largely powerless). Oberyn was a rare exception. He was not only interested in justice, but he seemed to actually be able (and willing) to do something about it. One of the most amazing scenes in the series was his conversation with Tyrion in his cell at the end of the previous episode. Although arrogant, Oberyn was the closest thing to a true champion of justice that Westeros had - an avenger of wrongs, a defender of the weak. He was a man who was willing to go toe-to-toe with one of the deadliest men alive. Not because he _had_ to, but (mostly) because it was the right thing to do. There was some arrogance as well, I think, but there’s no doubt that he thought he was doing something just and proper. Oberyn wasn’t interested in justice or in defending Tyrion because he was weak or wrongly accused. All he cared about was revenge. He wanted to avenge his sister and nieces and nephews. Everything else was incidental. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/215 "2014-06-03T16:36:00Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Sansa is not a decent person; she’s a spoiled, petulant little shit who doesn’t care about anyone else but herself. One of the bravest and most selfless acts we’ve seen anyone take in all of GoT was Sansa standing up to Joffrey to save the love of Ser Dontos. She’s had very little chance to actually DO anything noble or benevolent, because she’s spent so much of the show being a helpless pawn, but I don’t really think there’s any evidence for your position. One of the few relatively honest and real relationships she’s had recently was with Shae, who she just thought was some random servant, and Shae (assuming she wasn’t just lying for some reason) became fiercely protective of her, which suggests a level of basic humanity in how Sansa treated someone who she presumably was within her legal rights to be a total raging bitch to. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/216 "2014-06-03T16:46:17Z")
Sansa was spoiled, maybe, but she’s also been through a series of really miserable circumstances. I’ve never been inclined to judge her harshly and I’m interested to see what happens as she starts to take control of her fate for the first time. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/217 "2014-06-03T16:48:25Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > This episode was the first time I recall him wanting a confession. He has always been fixated on killing The Mountain. He’s always said he wanted the person who carried out the order and the person who gave it. Tywin told him he gave him no orders to slaughter anyone, but the mountain got carried away. He wanted the mountain to admit Tywin explicitly told him to kill everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/218 "2014-06-03T17:00:28Z")
Do we know why Tywin ordered the killing of the Martell girl? Doesn’t seem like the kind of thing that would benefit Tywin Lannister. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/219 "2014-06-03T17:03:58Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Do we know why Tywin ordered the killing of the Martell girl? Doesn’t seem like the kind of thing that would benefit Tywin Lannister. I don’t think we necessarily know for certain that he did order it, but the idea would be to snuff out all traces of the Targaryen lineage in order to secure the new Baratheon dynasty and forestall the kind of return to power that Daenarys is planning. It’s basically standard operating procedure in this circumstance. Anyway, Tywin would want to ingratiate himself to the new power in the realm (Robert), and eliminating any future competitors for the throne is one way to do that. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/220 "2014-06-03T17:09:58Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Do we know why Tywin ordered the killing of the Martell girl? Doesn’t seem like the kind of thing that would benefit Tywin Lannister. At the very least, this isn’t going to over very well in Dorne, I suspect. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809.md?page=12)