# Game of Thrones 4.08 "The Mountain and the Viper" 6/1/14 \[no spoilers\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 2, 2014, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809 "2014-06-02T03:04:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/221 "2014-06-03T17:12:57Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > At the very least, this isn’t going to over very well in Dorne, I suspect. Daenerys may find an ally there? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/222 "2014-06-03T17:15:53Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > At the very least, this isn’t going to over very well in Dorne, I suspect. If I were Dornish, this is what I would think: We love Oberyn, and trust that he knows the truth of things. He volunteered to be Tyrion’s champion. Now, I don’t care about The Imp; but Oberyn must think The Imp is innocent. So our Prince fought the good fight and was _murdered_ by the Lannisters! :mad: Not saying that’s what people will think when they hear it, but I think it’s a reasonable thing to think. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/223 "2014-06-03T17:21:33Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Elia Martell was not the queen. She was wife of the crown prince, Rhaegar Targaryen, Daenerys’s eldest brother. That would be the same Rhaegar who abducted Lyanna Stark, prompting Robert Baratheon to lead a rebellion against the Mad King, Rhaegar’s father. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Fornicator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@The\_Fornicator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Fornicator)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/224 "2014-06-03T17:28:00Z")
> [@Little\_Bird](#): > > wobbly-legs boner Band name! ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/225 "2014-06-03T17:31:15Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > If I were Dornish, this is what I would think: We love Oberyn, and trust that he knows the truth of things. He volunteered to be Tyrion’s champion. Now, I don’t care about The Imp; but Oberyn must think The Imp is innocent. So our Prince fought the good fight and was _murdered_ by the Lannisters! :mad: > > Not saying that’s what people will think when they hear it, but I think it’s a reasonable thing to think. The Dornish royal family might feel that way and I wouldn’t be surprised if we hear from them soon. But Oberyn did volunteer to fight to the death, so if you’re not Dornish royalty or a staunch patriot, you might not find this so shocking or horrible. One of the themes of the series is that for the most part, the peasants are pretty cynical about the scrapes the nobles get themselves into. ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/226 "2014-06-03T18:11:21Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > If I were Dornish, this is what I would think: We love Oberyn, and trust that he knows the truth of things. He volunteered to be Tyrion’s champion. Now, I don’t care about The Imp; but Oberyn must think The Imp is innocent. So our Prince fought the good fight and was _murdered_ by the Lannisters! :mad: > > Not saying that’s what people will think when they hear it, but I think it’s a reasonable thing to think. It’d be _more_ reasonable for them to think: Oberyn finally got his chance to fight that guy he’s been loudly obsessed with killing for 20 years, what a pity the other guy won. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/227 "2014-06-03T18:14:29Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Do we know why Tywin ordered the killing of the Martell girl? Doesn’t seem like the kind of thing that would benefit Tywin Lannister. It would benefit Tywin lannister because Robert hated all the Targaryens and wanted them all killed. ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/228 "2014-06-03T18:30:29Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Elia Martell was not the queen. She was wife of the crown prince, Rhaegar Targaryen, Daenerys’s eldest brother. Ahhh, ok. I was always wondering why that seemed like not such a big deal to people. I can’t keep the Targaryens straight. I used to think the Mad King and the guy who kidnapped Ned’s sister were the same guy–but that was his son, right? ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/229 "2014-06-03T18:46:25Z")
> [@Push\_You\_Down](#): > > Ahhh, ok. I was always wondering why that seemed like not such a big deal to people. I can’t keep the Targaryens straight. I used to think the Mad King and the guy who kidnapped Ned’s sister were the same guy–but that was his son, right? Rhagear Targaryen was: -The Mad King’s Son and heir, Danaerys and Viserys’s much-older brother -According to Ser Barristan, “the finest man I ever met” (or something very close to that). -Married to Elia Martell, with two (?) children -Blamed by Robert for kidnapping Ned’s sister, who Robert loved (Robert and Ned visited her tomb in the crypt under Winterfell) -Killed by Robert during the rebellion Definitely a mysterious and interesting figure. ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/230 "2014-06-03T18:49:12Z")
> [@Meloy](#): > > All he cared about was revenge. If that were the case, his speech with Tyrion was pointless. He could have walked into the cell and said, “Tyrion, as you know, I hate the fucking Mountain. Because of that, I will be your champion. Ok, see ya.” Instead he tells the story of when he saw a baby Tyrion. Why? He doesn’t have to convince Tyrion of anything. It’s not like Tyrion would turn down his offer to be his champion because he doesn’t think his motive is pure enough. There’s nobody else in the room he’s trying to impress. If he was truly interested in only vengeance, he undoubtedly could have raped and murdered Cersei’s daughter in Dorne. Eye for an eye and all that. But he thinks that _sort_ of thing is wrong, not just when it’s done to one of his kin. I certainly agree that revenge was his primary motive. He wanted a shot at the Mountain before Tyrion was arrested and accused. Revenge was the reason he was in King’s Landing to begin with. But that doesn’t preclude his having other reasons for being Tyrion’s champion. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/231 "2014-06-03T18:56:11Z")
> [@The\_Fornicator](#): > > Band name! I think \*Metaphorical Boner \*has more a ring to it. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/232 "2014-06-03T19:44:27Z")
As Tyrion’s champion got his head squooshed, three different movie scenes came to mind: 1. "The most obvious one, to everyone, was “Hello. My name is Oberyn Martell. You raped my sister. Prepare to die.” 2. Even though the weapons were different, Tuco said it best: [The Good, Bad and the Ugly - Tuco Shoot - YouTube](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYsV-DTkTg0) 3. Finally, there was Frozone, the Iceman style superhero, reminiscing about a battle he should have lost against a super villain. "So, now I’m in deep trouble. I mean, one more jolt of this death ray and I’m an epitaph. Somehow I manage to find cover and what does Baron von Ruthless do? He starts **monologuing**! He starts like, this prepared speech about how feeble I am compared to him, how inevitable my defeat is, how the world will soon be his, yadda yadda yadda. Yammering! \*\*I mean, the guy has me on a platter and he won’t shut up! \*\* Cripes, didn’t Oberyn ever SEE these movies??? He’s defeated a guy everyone thought was invincible. All he has to do is KILL him. Instead, he turns into Dr. Evil, and chooses to taunt his opponent, giving his opponent time to strike first! ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/233 "2014-06-03T19:49:47Z")
> [@VarlosZ](#): > > I don’t think we necessarily know for certain that he did order it, but the idea would be to snuff out all traces of the Targaryen lineage in order to secure the new Baratheon dynasty and forestall the kind of return to power that Daenarys is planning. It’s basically standard operating procedure in this circumstance. Anyway, Tywin would want to ingratiate himself to the new power in the realm (Robert), and eliminating any future competitors for the throne is one way to do that. See , the thing with the mountain is that he is a at heart a simple guy. Tywin tells him to go thus and anyone inside that kill box is going to be fair game, no matter who it might be. I cant see Tywin specifically ordering a hit on the viper’s sister, but fate is a fickle bitch. She wandered into a combat zone, and stuff might happen. Declan ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/234 "2014-06-03T19:53:09Z")
> [@BlackKnight](#): > > I certainly agree that revenge was his primary motive. He wanted a shot at the Mountain before Tyrion was arrested and accused. Revenge was the reason he was in King’s Landing to begin with. But that doesn’t preclude his having other reasons for being Tyrion’s champion. The mountain may have been the first to go down, in Oberyns plan. But Tywin was going to have advanced billing on the next rage in the cage. Clearing Tyrion may have been a factor in his future plans, as he was amused at finding that one lanister that was just as eager as he to see the lanister family tree pruned. Declan ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/235 "2014-06-03T19:55:28Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Sansa was spoiled, maybe, but she’s also been through a series of really miserable circumstances. I’ve never been inclined to judge her harshly and I’m interested to see what happens as she starts to take control of her fate for the first time. To clarify, while I do consider her to be a petulant little shit, she’s one of my favorite characters in the whole show and has been for a while. > [@MaxTheVool](#): > > One of the bravest and most selfless acts we’ve seen anyone take in all of GoT was Sansa standing up to Joffrey to save the love of Ser Dontos. > > She’s had very little chance to actually DO anything noble or benevolent, because she’s spent so much of the show being a helpless pawn, but I don’t really think there’s any evidence for your position. One of the few relatively honest and real relationships she’s had recently was with Shae, who she just thought was some random servant, and Shae (assuming she wasn’t just lying for some reason) became fiercely protective of her, which suggests a level of basic humanity in how Sansa treated someone who she presumably was within her legal rights to be a total raging bitch to. These are a bit overstated, but compelling. I may need to re-evaluate my impression of her. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/236 "2014-06-03T19:56:17Z")
> [@Declan](#): > > See , the thing with the mountain is that he is a at heart a simple guy. Tywin tells him to go thus and anyone inside that kill box is going to be fair game, no matter who it might be. I cant see Tywin specifically ordering a hit on the viper’s sister, but fate is a fickle bitch. She wandered into a combat zone, and stuff might happen. It’s not so much that she wandered into the combat zone. The city was overrun and she was a target, and in a situation like that the royals are always going to be targets. It’s the same reason Cersei was ready to poison herself and her children when Stannis’ army was at the door. Tywin would have wanted the Targaryens wiped out, but he’s also a smart man: when you have people like The Mountain on your side, you don’t have to give a specific order. What you want is understood. > [@EllisDee](#): > > To clarify, while I do consider her to be a petulant little shit, she’s one of my favorite characters in the whole show and has been for a while. That’s interesting. My girlfriend mentioned to me recently that Sansa is one of her favorite characters, and that struck me because in these threads people don’t usually have much good to say about Sansa. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/237 "2014-06-03T19:58:32Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The Dornish royal family might feel that way and I wouldn’t be surprised if we hear from them soon. But Oberyn did volunteer to fight to the death, so if you’re not Dornish royalty or a staunch patriot, you might not find this so shocking or horrible. One of the themes of the series is that for the most part, the peasants are pretty cynical about the scrapes the nobles get themselves into. Presumably it would be the royal family, their bannermen and other minor lords and knights who would be bent out of shape. The peasants would just be like “great…we have to go fight against some other assholes because the asshole whose land we work wants to kiss the ass of some higher up asshole whose pissed because some other asshole lost a fight to some giant asshole.” ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/238 "2014-06-03T19:59:45Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Ever see _The Walking Dead_? 😛 Yeah, but I don’t think Oberyn’s head has been rotting out in the sun for a year.😃 ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/239 "2014-06-03T20:04:33Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > when you have people like The Mountain on your side, you don’t have to give a specific order. What you want is understood. This conversation reminds me of [this hilarious sketch](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6cake3bwnY) (totally unrelated to GoT, no spoilers or anything). ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/240 "2014-06-03T20:25:36Z")
> [@interface2x](#): > > By the end, Oberyn had a crush, too. A pretty massive one. Seems to me he let his vengefulness go to his head. > [@MaxTheVool](#): > > This conversation reminds me of [this hilarious sketch](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6cake3bwnY) (totally unrelated to GoT, no spoilers or anything). Heheh. Love it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809.md?page=13)