# Game of Thrones 4.08 "The Mountain and the Viper" 6/1/14 \[no spoilers\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 2, 2014, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809 "2014-06-02T03:04:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/21 "2014-06-02T07:29:36Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > I’m confused about the significance of the Beetle discussion. It went on quite a long time but didn’t seem particularly clever or funny. What was it an analogy for? The fickleness of the gods and fate? The gods just crushing people seemingly at random, and everyone just sort of accepting it, while Tyrion tries to make sense of it? Not quite sure I understood that scene. Whatever it was, it went on for WAY too long. I can only assume that it’s Peter Dinklage’s vanity Emmy clip. Even knowing what was coming, damn that was a graphic death scene. It made the DEADWOOD eye gouging street brawl to the death between Dan and the Captain look like Solange and JayZ. Jorah is a hard call to make. Yes, he did used to spy on her and report back to Westeros, but that was when Viserys was the real heir and he was such an ass that not even she shed a tear when her husband scalded his head and killed him. Since that time he has more than proven his loyalty and love for her. Would you have sent him away? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/22 "2014-06-02T07:31:26Z")
I didn’t like the way they ended the fight, not because I wanted the Red Viper to win, but because the Mountain won in a way that seemed spectacularly out of character. He’s always been portrayed as a pure brute comprised of rage and muscle without a trace of cunning or self-control, however after being stabbed with the spear, falling down and being stabbed through what looked like his crotch, he suddenly decides to play possum and lie perfectly still, not even twitching, while Oberyn starts monologing and stops paying attention to him. Beyond that, it’s only an effective strategy if he knew Oberyn would all of a sudden get careless rather than continuing to turn him into a pincushion while he was on the ground. The Mountain’s natural response should have been to keep fighting. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/23 "2014-06-02T07:32:56Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Whatever it was, it went on for WAY too long. I can only assume that it’s Peter Dinklage’s vanity Emmy clip. > > Even knowing what was coming, damn that was a graphic death scene. It made the DEADWOOD eye gouging street brawl to the death between Dan and the Captain look like Solange and JayZ. > > Jorah is a hard call to make. Yes, he did used to spy on her and report back to Westeros, but that was when Viserys was the real heir and he was such an ass that not even she shed a tear when her husband scalded his head and killed him. Since that time he has more than proven his loyalty and love for her. Would you have sent him away? I was actually reminded of the scene from Blade Runner when Roy Batty killed his “father” by pushing in his eyes. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/24 "2014-06-02T07:41:01Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I didn’t like the way they ended the fight, not because I wanted the Red Viper to win, but because the Mountain won in a way that seemed spectacularly out of character. I didn’t take The Mountain’s temporary incapacitation to be a ploy. I think he was stunned or temporarily knocked unconscious or perhaps unable to breathe and gather his strength, and he probably attacked as soon as he came to or otherwise became able. I don’t think there’s any way to say for sure, we don’t see his face during this part, just a body that isn’t moving. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/25 "2014-06-02T08:58:58Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > I didn’t take The Mountain’s temporary incapacitation to be a ploy. I think he was stunned or temporarily knocked unconscious or perhaps unable to breathe and gather his strength, and he probably attacked as soon as he came to or otherwise became able. I don’t think there’s any way to say for sure, we don’t see his face during this part, just a body that isn’t moving. Well, I disagree but one of the things that make this such a great show is reasonable people can agree to disagree. One thing that wasn’t clear to me was whether or not he’s survived the fight. He was really badly wounded and he just sort of collapsed when it was done. If he dies could Tyrion argue the fight was effectively a draw and he should be let free. Yes, Tywin declared him the victor in the episode, but if the Mountain actually turns out to have died from his wounds, or even die of his wounds say a week later, does that change things? ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/26 "2014-06-02T10:53:01Z")
Does anyone remember the three betrayals Dany saw in her vision in The House of Blue Lips? Lord Friendzone has got to be one of them, but I don’t exactly remember what they were and how they were worded. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/27 "2014-06-02T11:19:27Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > If he dies could Tyrion argue the fight was effectively a draw and he should be let free. Yes, Tywin declared him the victor in the episode, but if the Mountain actually turns out to have died from his wounds, or even die of his wounds say a week later, does that change things? I think a tie goes to the house, much like in Blackjack. Do people in Westeros have soft skulls or something? Because it seems ridiculously easy to pierce people’s heads with swords, spears and arrows or to even crush someone’s head with your bare hands. I mean the Mountain is a big man and all. But I’m not sure it’s possible to crush a mans head like that. > [@SenorBeef](#): > > I didn’t take The Mountain’s temporary incapacitation to be a ploy Yeah, he took a spear to the gut, plus a cut hamstring. I figured there was a pretty good chance he died right after Oberyn. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/28 "2014-06-02T11:25:17Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > Does anyone remember the three betrayals Dany saw in her vision in The House of Blue Lips? Lord Friendzone has got to be one of them, but I don’t exactly remember what they were and how they were worded. IIRC, this is from the books and was portrayed differently in the series. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/29 "2014-06-02T11:26:35Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Do people in Westeros have soft skulls or something? Because it seems ridiculously easy to pierce people’s heads with swords, spears and arrows or to even crush someone’s head with your bare hands. I mean the Mountain is a big man and all. But I’m not sure it’s possible to crush a mans head like that. Probably not… but the Mountain probably has the strongest hands in the world, plus he was (presumably) putting all his considerable weight onto poor Oberyn’s head. Dramatic (and disgusting) license. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/30 "2014-06-02T11:31:03Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > IIRC, this is from the books and was portrayed differently in the series. Well, how was it potrayed? I don’t remember. ---
**Author:** ![GreasyJack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@GreasyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreasyJack)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/31 "2014-06-02T11:32:05Z")
In retrospect, perhaps Tyrion’s “can’t you at least wear a helmet?” advice might have been prudent. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/32 "2014-06-02T11:40:56Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > I’m confused about the significance of the Beetle discussion. It went on quite a long time but didn’t seem particularly clever or funny. What was it an analogy for? The fickleness of the gods and fate? The gods just crushing people seemingly at random, and everyone just sort of accepting it, while Tyrion tries to make sense of it? Not quite sure I understood that scene. We weren’t quite sure either. My haphazard guess was that “every action and death has a purpose, as does every life”. The problem Tyrion was trying, and failing, to solve was “WHAT is that purpose”? Of course, it could also be “all these deaths are mindless and without purpose” - but I think that takes away from Tyrion’s contemplation. > [@msmith537](#): > > I think a tie goes to the house, much like in Blackjack. Ties don’t go to the house in Blackjack. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/33 "2014-06-02T12:09:07Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > Well, how was it potrayed? I don’t remember. In the series, while she was held captive, Daenerys’s vision was of the throneroom at the Red Keep (King’s Landing), destroyed and open to the snowing sky, and then she wanders outside to find a (still living) Drogo and their son. She briefly considers staying with them, but figures out it’s not real and comes back to reality, in which she orders her dragons to burn the blue-lipped wizard. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/34 "2014-06-02T12:14:59Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Do people in Westeros have soft skulls or something? Because it seems ridiculously easy to pierce people’s heads with swords, spears and arrows or to even crush someone’s head with your bare hands. I mean the Mountain is a big man and all. But I’m not sure it’s possible to crush a mans head like that. On a different forum I saw a cite that said it takes ~500 lbs to crush a skull and that a regular adult man can push at ~200 lbs. Seems plausible. ---
**Author:** ![brewha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@brewha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brewha)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/35 "2014-06-02T12:21:27Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > I’m confused about the significance of the Beetle discussion. It went on quite a long time but didn’t seem particularly clever or funny. What was it an analogy for? The fickleness of the gods and fate? The gods just crushing people seemingly at random, and everyone just sort of accepting it, while Tyrion tries to make sense of it? Not quite sure I understood that scene. My guess is that it is an analogy. The simpleton squishes beetles for the same reason Tywin kills. Murders an entire wedding party, his son, etc. I’m not sure what that reason is - but I’m thinking that if Tyrion does get executed, he’ll tell us just before he dies. Just a guess. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/36 "2014-06-02T12:23:56Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > I’m confused about the significance of the Beetle discussion. It went on quite a long time but didn’t seem particularly clever or funny. What was it an analogy for? The fickleness of the gods and fate? The gods just crushing people seemingly at random, and everyone just sort of accepting it, while Tyrion tries to make sense of it? That was my take. It would have been more effective with tighter editing. ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_Prize](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@Sir\_Prize](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_Prize)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/37 "2014-06-02T12:48:15Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > I’m confused about the significance of the Beetle discussion. It went on quite a long time but didn’t seem particularly clever or funny. What was it an analogy for? The fickleness of the gods and fate? The gods just crushing people seemingly at random, and everyone just sort of accepting it, while Tyrion tries to make sense of it? Not quite sure I understood that scene. The strong crush the weak. That’s the way the world works. There is no why. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/38 "2014-06-02T12:55:06Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I think a tie goes to the house, much like in Blackjack. Oberyn clearly died first. I think whoever dies first loses, assuming both are really dead. > [@](#): > > Do people in Westeros have soft skulls or something? Because it seems ridiculously easy to pierce people’s heads with swords, spears and arrows or to even crush someone’s head with your bare hands. I mean the Mountain is a big man and all. But I’m not sure it’s possible to crush a mans head like that. The head of the Ironborn leader at Moit Caillin got an axe in the head, and it didn’t go very far in. Someone likely to weigh well over two hundred pounds pushing down with all his might probably could. Maybe not on the forehead, but the back of the eye socket isn’t the strongest part of the skull. Oberyn’s girlfriend didn’t seem very happy. All that talk by the hound about poison being the weapon of women, I think she’s going to take some revenge. > [@](#): > > Yeah, he took a spear to the gut, plus a cut hamstring. I figured there was a pretty good chance he died right after Oberyn. I think his calf was cut. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/39 "2014-06-02T12:57:51Z")
Did anyone else think, after Oberyn apparently killed The Mountain and was addressing the court, that Oberyn was about to throw the spear at Tywin? ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/40 "2014-06-02T13:01:20Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > Oberyn’s girlfriend Bastard sister, I believe. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809.md?page=3)