# Game of Thrones 4.08 "The Mountain and the Viper" 6/1/14 \[no spoilers\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 2, 2014, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809 "2014-06-02T03:04:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/41 "2014-06-02T13:05:58Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Did anyone else think, after Oberyn apparently killed The Mountain and was addressing the court, that Oberyn was about to throw the spear at Tywin? Bet Tywin was rethinking putting Oberyn on the small council at that point. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/42 "2014-06-02T13:08:54Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > Someone likely to weigh well over two hundred pounds pushing down with all his might probably could. Maybe not on the forehead, but the back of the eye socket isn’t the strongest part of the skull. I think you’re talking about the general sense, but in this specific instance the actor playing the Mountain is 6’9", 419 pounds. That’s a bit beyond “well over” 200 pounds. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/43 "2014-06-02T13:14:30Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Bastard sister, I believe. Girlfriend, or paramour if you prefer. Also a bastard, but not related. In a different show, all that making out would usually be a hint. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/44 "2014-06-02T13:21:22Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I think a tie goes to the house, much like in Blackjack. > Do people in Westeros have soft skulls or something? Because it seems ridiculously easy to pierce people’s heads with swords, spears and arrows or to even crush someone’s head with your bare hands. I mean the Mountain is a big man and all. But I’m not sure it’s possible to crush a mans head like that. > > Yeah, he took a spear to the gut, plus a cut hamstring. I figured there was a pretty good chance he died right after Oberyn. I don’t know about the rules regarding ‘ties’ in ASOIAF, but Wikipedia says (for what it’s worth) that under the historical rules of trial by battle (as they existed in medieval England) a ‘tie’ went to the defendant. If neither party was dead by sundown the verdict was ‘not guilty’. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/45 "2014-06-02T13:37:11Z")
> [@Charlie\_Wayne](#): > > I would guess that if these books or this show ever comes to a conclusion and if there ever is a winner to the GOT, Sansa could very well be the winner. That’s sort of like a bad season of _Survivor_. The duel was good viewing, but predictable at the end, and reeks of lazy writing to have the guy drop his guard like that. But… isn’t it a draw? Or did Tyrion’s guy die first, so that’s the verdict? I’m thinking there is some out that is going to come up next week. Not asking for spoilers!!! ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/46 "2014-06-02T13:53:17Z")
I thought it was a bit tactless and inadvisable for Arya to laugh so openly at the news of Lysa’s death. You’re standing at the gates to her palace, weapons are trained on you, her guards and other people presumably loyal to her are within hearing, and you’re laughing at the news of her death? Not a good idea. And I imagined that “the vale” consisted of that one castle, the Eyrie. But they mentioned other castles and properties, so “the vale” is a whole territory. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/47 "2014-06-02T13:55:56Z")
I’m thinking, but I am not sure, that “The Vale” may be another name for the Riverlands. Which may or may not be one of the 7 Kingdoms. So, yeah, I know nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/48 "2014-06-02T14:14:35Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > I’m thinking, but I am not sure, that “The Vale” may be another name for the Riverlands. Which may or may not be one of the 7 Kingdoms. So, yeah, I know nothing. The Seven Kingdoms and the ruling families are/were: The North (Stark) The Iron Islands (Greyjoy) The Vale (Arryn) The Westerlands (Lannister) The Stormlands (Baratheon) Dorne (Martell) The Reach (Tyrell) The Eyrie is just the ruling castle of the Vale like Winterfell is the ruling castle of the North or Highgarden is of the Reach. The Riverlands aren’t a kingdom, but are probably the most important land that wasn’t one. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/49 "2014-06-02T14:17:30Z")
“The Vale” is the Vale of Arryn, which is ruled from the Eyrie. It was one of the seven kingdoms. It is one of the nine territories that make up the Seven Kingdoms. The Riverlands is a separate territory ruled by the Tullys based at Riverrun. It is one of the nine territories of the Seven Kingdoms, but it had not been a separate kingdom before the arrival if the Targaryens. It has the same status as if it had been one, though, equal to the other “kingdoms” (which are not kingdoms any more) ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/50 "2014-06-02T14:19:27Z")
The Vale is the equivalent of a duchy, just like the North, the Iron Islands, the Stormlands, etc. It’s not the Riverlands. The Riverlands is where Frey and the Tullies (remember that guy trying to light his father’s funeral boat on fire with a bow?). The Vale is where all those barbarians came from, remember Shagga and Co? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/51 "2014-06-02T14:20:02Z")
> [@Push\_You\_Down](#): > > Are we to think that Sansa and Baelish… well, did it? I didn’t think about it at the time because I was in ‘when are they going to get to the fireworks factory?’ mode, but yes. At the end of her scene with Littlefinger, he asks something like “Do you know what I want?” > [@](#): > > The duel was good, but predictable–and the Inigo Montoya jokes are just bolstered by his repetition of his mantra during the fight. The resemblance to Inigo is intentional, and I see it as a take on what happens when a character’s desire for revenge goes beyond the bounds of good sense. I couldn’t help thinking of this, from the thread for the last episode: > [@Game of Thrones 4.07 "Mockingbird" 5/18/14 \[no spoilers\]](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-07-mockingbird-5-18-14-no-spoilers/688683/179): > > Martin doesn’t kill people because they are good, he kills people because they make stupid decisions and put themselves into positions where most people would die. We are just used to most writers saving good guys from those situations. This is just a straight up fight between two people, one of whom looks incredibly tough and the other we do not know too much about. Oberyn wasn’t stupid to get into a fight with the Mountain since he enough skill to win without a scratch on him. But he turned his back on a wounded but still living opponent to make a speech, and it got him killed. You could call that stupid, but anyway it’s an obvious mistake that people often get away with in stories like this. > [@Push\_You\_Down](#): > > What happens if both combatants die. I thought that might’ve happened. Of course there’s no instant replay in Westeros. > [@](#): > > I assume the opening with the whore burping the song was the show winking at the audience. They named the only two songs that exist in Westeros. …both of which kind of suck. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > He’s always been portrayed as a pure brute comprised of rage and muscle without a trace of cunning or self-control This is mostly what people have said about him. We haven’t seen him fight much: he chopped the head off his horse and killed a couple of terrified prisoners, but none of that proves he lacks cunning. Anyway, his plan was “when he isn’t looking I’ll trip him.” It’s not the most complicated plot we’ve ever seen. > [@](#): > > however after being stabbed with the spear, falling down and being stabbed through what looked like his crotch, he suddenly decides to play possum and lie perfectly still, not even twitching, while Oberyn starts monologing and stops paying attention to him. Oberyn knew he was alive. The whole point of the exercise was that he wanted the Mountain to confess to murdering his sister and admit that Tywin was behind it. > [@](#): > > Beyond that, it’s only an effective strategy if he knew Oberyn would all of a sudden get careless rather than continuing to turn him into a pincushion while he was on the ground. He’d been hamstrung and run through the chest with a spear. I’m not seeing what his other options were. ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/52 "2014-06-02T14:21:52Z")
Curious to see what’s in store for next weeks Episode 8. Seems like every season the penultimate episode contains the seasons most shocking or memorable occurance. Season 1 had Ned losing his head, season two had the battle at blackwater bay, season 3 had the red wedding. It’s going to be hard to top this weeks episode only 1 week later. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/53 "2014-06-02T14:28:32Z")
No, the vale of Arryn is a whole different kingdom. ---
**Author:** ![Death\_of\_Rats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Death\_of\_Rats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Death_of_Rats)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/54 "2014-06-02T14:46:30Z")
The Vale and the Riverlands are different places, but the same concept. The Vale is the large moumtain and valley system that makes up the Kingdom of the Vale of Arryn. The Eyrie is the capital/castle of the Lord of the Vale. The Riverlands is the the neighboring kingdom, with Riverrun as the capital. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/55 "2014-06-02T14:49:49Z")
> [@Death\_of\_Rats](#): > > The Riverlands is the the neighboring kingdom, with Riverrun as the capital. Nitpick: The Riverlands is not a kingdom. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/56 "2014-06-02T14:50:59Z")
That scene with Ramsay and Roose was almost touching until you remember who they are. ---
**Author:** ![MeanJoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanjoe/32/5693_2.png) [@MeanJoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanJoe)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/57 "2014-06-02T15:12:55Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > That scene with Ramsay and Roose was almost touching until you remember who they are. And Ramsay’s pledge to maintain his traditions and make him proud was about flaying people which (if I recall correctly) was stopped by the Stark’s at some point in history. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/58 "2014-06-02T15:17:58Z")
Also, was that the fat guy who put an axe into the defiant guy head in Moat Caitlin (or whatever) whose disgustingly flayed body Ramsey was gloating over? And is it me or was this episode more gory than usual what with the axe head, flayed guy and crushed coconut head shots? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Lowry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sam\_Lowry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Lowry)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/59 "2014-06-02T15:19:10Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I thought it was a bit tactless and inadvisable for Arya to laugh so openly at the news of Lysa’s death. You’re standing at the gates to her palace, weapons are trained on you, her guards and other people presumably loyal to her are within hearing, and you’re laughing at the news of her death? Not a good idea. It probably was inadvisable, but I can’t blame her. Her life has been pretty terrible lately. She was about to reunite with her mom and brother right at the time they were killed. Now she’s going to go to her aunt and it turns out her aunt is dead. As far as Arya knows, she has no family left. It’s not at all surprising she cracked up. They should be able to tell that it’s not laughter from mockery, but laughter from madness, or Arya or the Hound should be able to say that pretty quickly. If I’m remembering correctly, the guard didn’t look insulted at the laughter, like “how dare you laugh!”, he looked more uncomfortable, like you would when around a crazy person. She could actually meet up with Sansa there, but I don’t know if Littlefinger and Sansa have left already. That would be tragically ironic, if Arya and the Hound move on and don’t meet with Sansa there. But if anyone tells Littlefinger that Arya is there, I’m sure he would offer his protection (for his own gain of course) and then Arya and Sansa can reunite. ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/60 "2014-06-02T15:27:39Z")
> [@Hampshire](#): > > Seems like every season the penultimate episode contains the seasons most shocking or memorable occurance. Killing Tyrion would certainly be a memorable occurrence. Not necessarily shocking though, since all the logic of the plot at this point indicates that he will be executed. Re: The Beetles I took the conversation to be a meditation on a certain type of violence. Westeros is a dangerous place, but most of the violence has a definite and understandable purpose. Littlefinger killed Joffrey in order to cause exploitable chaos. Tywin has people killed for political gain and to pay back those who cross him. In the past, the Hound killed people because it was his duty. (Now that there’s a price on his head, he does it just to survive.) The Mountain? The Mountain kills because he enjoys killing. He’s a sadist. He will kill at Tywin’s command, but he clearly will do some extra-curricular killing on his free time. At least, I can’t think of any reason to order The Mountain to kill prisoners. That appears to be something he does for shits and giggles. Why does he do it? _kunk_ Smash the beetles. What does he get out of it? _kunk_ Smash the beetles. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809.md?page=4)