# Game of Thrones 4.08 "The Mountain and the Viper" 6/1/14 \[no spoilers\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 2, 2014, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809 "2014-06-02T03:04:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/141 "2014-06-02T22:50:34Z")
But that would be predictable. I expect a surprising or shocking event in the next episode. ---
**Author:** ![Critical1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Critical1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Critical1)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/142 "2014-06-02T23:27:49Z")
Am I the only one who wonders if the scene with Jorah getting the boot might have been staged? As in She is in on it and is basically sending him off as a spy? I loved the fight, it was a great surprise to see how badassed Obiwan really was. I do agree that once he started fucking around it was obvious he was going to die. On the other hand it would have been pretty sweet of him to pull a knife and stab the Mountain in the face instead of ending up Brain Pudding. ---
**Author:** ![interface2x](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c0e974/32.png) [@interface2x](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/interface2x)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/143 "2014-06-02T23:28:48Z")
> [@The\_Fornicator](#): > > D’you think it’s too soon to get Oberon’s ex’s number? “So Ellaria … mind if I send you a raven sometime?” ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/144 "2014-06-02T23:41:14Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > Not really. Tyrion is still alive, and currently the only remaining character anyone with a heart actually loves anymore. > > So, he’s bound to die next episode. Brienne? Davos Seaworth? I think of the next most prominent 30 or so characters, there are more who are on the good side of neutral than evil, although a fair number of those are also the less interesting ones, storywise (eg, Bran and Meera and Jojen). ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/145 "2014-06-02T23:58:43Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Why would Margery ask for mercy for Tyrion? I doubt it. The Tyrells seem decent enough but the last thing they want it a further investigation to Joffrey’s murder. As far as they are concerned, Tyrion is the Lannister Imp, let him take the fall and the business be done. Oops I quoted wrong. My point is I agree she wouldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/146 "2014-06-03T00:01:58Z")
> [@Critical1](#): > > Am I the only one who wonders if the scene with Jorah getting the boot might have been staged? As in She is in on it and is basically sending him off as a spy? That’s an interesting theory, but why would they bother to stage it? Is she worried that Barristan, the translator, or Grey Worm can’t be trusted? (I think they were the only ones in the room.) If the plan was to make him a spy, they could have just sent him on his way and spread the story that he had been kicked out - no need for acting out a scene viewed only by her inner circle. That said, I wonder if he might take it upon himself to work toward her goals anyway. He could travel to King’s Landing and start working towards building an underground group that will sabotage the defenses of the city when she arrives. Ostensibly because she is the One True ruler of Westeros, but mostly because he thinks it would give him a shot at getting into her good graces and / or pants. Also, other mostly-good characters: Jon Snow Osha Arya Stannis’ daughter whats-her-name Podrick Hodor Ser Barristan (he’s strict, but undoubtedly honorable; one of the first characters to tell King Joffrey to go fuck his royal self.) And possibly: Danaerys - Crucified some people, sure, but they were dicks. Faceless Man - Maybe still around somewhere. Although basically a murder genie, also generally a likable guy. Gendry - Assuming he’s still around somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/147 "2014-06-03T00:21:36Z")
> [@BlackKnight](#): > > Faceless Man - Maybe still around somewhere. Although basically a murder genie, also generally a likable guy. My guidance counselor never told me murder genie was an option. > [@Marley23](#): > > Oberyn knew he was alive. The whole point of the exercise was that he wanted the Mountain to confess to murdering his sister and admit that Tywin was behind it. Well, he got half of his wish… ---
**Author:** ![oft\_wears\_hats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7993a0/32.png) [@oft\_wears\_hats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oft_wears_hats)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/148 "2014-06-03T00:22:46Z")
> [@Quimby](#): > > I doubt it. The Tyrells seem decent enough but the last thing they want it a further investigation to Joffrey’s murder. As far as they are concerned, Tyrion is the Lannister Imp, let him take the fall and the business be done. > > Oops I quoted wrong. My point is I agree she wouldn’t. Asking for mercy for the convicted person isn’t the same as saying “he’s innocent, let’s let him off the hook.” Margaery can sue for leniency on Tyrion without admitting that she knows he’s innocent. ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_Prize](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@Sir\_Prize](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_Prize)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/149 "2014-06-03T00:33:35Z")
> [@Hampshire](#): > > I wonder where they’re going with the unsullied guy + Danarey’s assistant love story? With all the intersting plot lines going on this one seemed like a big waste of time. I thought it was sweet. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/150 "2014-06-03T00:36:01Z")
> [@Sir\_Prize](#): > > I thought it was sweet. Well, they need to start grooming some new main characters just in case some more of the current main characters get, umm, Martinized. ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_Prize](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@Sir\_Prize](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_Prize)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/151 "2014-06-03T00:36:04Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Tyrion at the Wall would be interesting because I’d like to see him pair up with Jon Snow. Both seem relatively rational about the dangers they are facing. But it seems a bad idea to treat the Wall as a prison colony and dump all the undesirable soldiers there. Not just Jon but Stannis as well. When it comes to people that Tyrion could escape to, Stannis has to be the worst choice but maybe that’s the key. ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_Prize](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@Sir\_Prize](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_Prize)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/152 "2014-06-03T00:40:10Z")
> [@Sterling\_Archer](#): > > I think Daenerys is the only one who is truly unkillable. I think the series will end after Daenerys’ death when the White Walkers save everyone from the rampaging dragons. OK, no I don’t. But at some point I want ice vs fire. ---
**Author:** ![Macca26](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/13edae/32.png) [@Macca26](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Macca26)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/153 "2014-06-03T00:40:34Z")
I have a strong stomach for gore and violence and even I felt it flip at Oberyn. Thumbs in the eyes thing is a particular squick of mine, and it’s the fact that they literally showed it. Those thumbs were right up in there. Then, you think that they’ll not put the aftermath front and center, and they do it more than once. The sound they chose for crushed skull, and then the extent at which it was crushed, was simply right there at the top for me. It’s not going to stop me watching but it’s one of the few times I’ve wanted to turn away or avert my eyes from gore. I mean, I can watch House of 1000 Corpses… Theon’s torture was difficult to watch but there was not a bucket’s worth of gory mashed bits on the ground in multiple shots. The violence serves the story but it’s completely up to the director if we get a full shot of the gore, or just a peek over the Mountain’s shoulder. I dunno, I came to this thread just to say this even if nobody else brought it up. I just wanted to say it, really. ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_Prize](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@Sir\_Prize](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_Prize)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/154 "2014-06-03T00:53:13Z")
> [@Push\_You\_Down](#): > > Is Tommen at the duel? I could see Margery standing up right after the fight and begging mercy from the King–citing since both champions paid a heavy price then surely the Gods must think Tyrion is at least partially blameless… In public, with a hot girl who probably gave him his first royal boner, he might be hard pressed to deny her and not lose her affectionl. Tywin would be hesitant to so blatantly “grandad” the king in the open. Cersie would lose her shit and it would probably be all out courtly war between her and Margery. Margery is too smart for that. For Margery chaos is not a ladder. If Tommen saves Tyrion he is going to do it from his own initiative. Don’t forget that Tywin still has incentive to allow Tyrion to escape death. It’s only Cersie who wants Tyrion to die. Tywin wants Jamie out of the King’s Gaurd and back at the rock. I think he will make a deal with Jamie, either to help Tyrion escape or to get Tommen to grant a pardon. ---
**Author:** ![Critical1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Critical1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Critical1)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/155 "2014-06-03T02:13:25Z")
> [@BlackKnight](#): > > That’s an interesting theory, but why would they bother to stage it? Is she worried that Barristan, the translator, or Grey Worm can’t be trusted? (I think they were the only ones in the room.) If the plan was to make him a spy, they could have just sent him on his way and spread the story that he had been kicked out - no need for acting out a scene viewed only by her inner circle. There were a few guards, and I do agree that it may not have needed the staging. It for some reason struck me that way. Regarding Tyrion, the episode did cut right after Tywinn issued the verdict, but the Mountain is dead as a doornail. There is no way in hell he survives that attack. so I suspect the Imp gets a hung jury of the gods type of thing. (read that as hope) He is hands down one of the most interesting characters on the show and easily one of the most developed as well. its a little hard to believe he dies, that could of course be bias from what we are used to seeing in shows though. ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/156 "2014-06-03T03:07:59Z")
> [@Darth\_Panda](#): > > My guidance counselor never told me murder genie was an option. I wish I could take credit for that phrase, but I think **Kobal2** used it first, back in a [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15134396&postcount=151) about episode 10 of season 2. **Macca26** , that last scene was indeed very brutal. Between that and the flayed torso, this has got to be the most gory episode of the series so far. Not the deadliest, nor the most icky in other ways (“Do you love me, Reek?”) - but definitely at or near the top of the list in terms of gore. I think I liked the brutality at the end of the fight because it really highlighted the dashed hopes of Tyrion and, by extension, most of the audience. There aren’t very many truly noble Nobles in Westeros. And those Lords or Ladies who are noble tend not to be very powerful (for example, Sansa is a decent person, but also largely powerless). Oberyn was a rare exception. He was not only interested in justice, but he seemed to actually be able (and willing) to do something about it. One of the most amazing scenes in the series was his conversation with Tyrion in his cell at the end of the previous episode. Although arrogant, Oberyn was the closest thing to a true champion of justice that Westeros had - an avenger of wrongs, a defender of the weak. He was a man who was willing to go toe-to-toe with one of the deadliest men alive. Not because he _had_ to, but (mostly) because it was the right thing to do. There was some arrogance as well, I think, but there’s no doubt that he thought he was doing something just and proper. And he got his fucking eyes gouged out while screeching an impotent, toothless wail of agony. And then his head was crushed like beetle under a rock. It was unsettling, and I like it because it was unsettling. It was not a proud, heroic death in combat like in some movies, where the hero, though fatally wounded, lives long enough to give one last speech. He didn’t cough a bit of blood daintily into a kerchief then faint into death. His end was ugly and brutal and horrifying. Westeros, like the real world, is a place where being on the side of justice is no guarantee that you will carry the day. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/157 "2014-06-03T03:19:41Z")
Well said, **BlackKnight**. King Tommen definitely wasn’t there for the trial by combat, unless he was incognito. He was nowhere to be seen among the VIPs in the front row. I don’t think the Mountain is dead. Badly wounded, certainly hamstrung, but not dead. > [@BlackKnight](#): > > I can understand that logic for Jon Snow, Daenerys, and _maybe_ Ayra. But I don’t see how it applies to Tyrion. What major plotline would be lost if Tyrion is executed? > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > That there are Lannisters with any redeeming qualities whatsoever. Well, come on. Tywin - fierce commitment to his family, political shrewdness, administrative skill. Cersei - equally fierce commitment to her children. Jaime - enduring love of his sister, even when she pushes him away; sense of humor; affection for his brother Tyrion; striving to be a better man and knight; saving Brienne from gang rape and, later, death in the bear pit. That said, of course all three have terrible character flaws. But to say they have no redeeming qualities whatsoever is clearly wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/158 "2014-06-03T03:36:23Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I thought it was a bit tactless and inadvisable for Arya to laugh so openly at the news of Lysa’s death. You’re standing at the gates to her palace, weapons are trained on you, her guards and other people presumably loyal to her are within hearing, and you’re laughing at the news of her death? Not a good idea. Honestly, at that point I’m not sure social conventions or even self-preservation were first and foremost on her mind. To me, that was a complete hysterical\* nervous breakdown. She’s cracking at the seams. Wouldn’t you, in her place ? - yes, I know, that is a bad word with a bad history, but it’s the one that springs to mind. Pretend for a minute it has no baggage please, for none of \*that \*is implied on my part. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/159 "2014-06-03T03:37:36Z")
> [@BlackKnight](#): > > I wish I could take credit for that phrase, but I think **Kobal2** used it first, back in a [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15134396&postcount=151) about episode 10 of season 2. And I can’t claim it either, I think I stole it from Something Awful. It’s good though, innit ? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Critical1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Critical1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Critical1)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809/160 "2014-06-03T03:59:45Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Well said, **BlackKnight**. > > I don’t think the Mountain is dead. Badly wounded, certainly hamstrung, but not dead. You might want to rewatch that scene, Oberyn drove that spear thing into his stomach at the end of a flying leap, unless someone pulls a magic bandaid out of their hat there is no way in hell he survived. [The damage starts at about 3:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OONy1sGyqpc) stabbed once but didn’t seem to slow him down, calf sliced like a mofo, then stabbed so hard the spear was standing in the wound. but it is hbo, it might only be a flesh wound. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-08-the-mountain-and-the-viper-6-1-14-no-spoilers/689809.md?page=9)