# Game of Thrones 4.09 "The Watchers on the Wall" 6/8/14 \[no spoilers\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 8, 2014, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-09-the-watchers-on-the-wall-6-8-14-no-spoilers/690348 "2014-06-08T20:28:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Vashbul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Vashbul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vashbul)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-09-the-watchers-on-the-wall-6-8-14-no-spoilers/690348/141 "2014-06-11T02:57:16Z")
Oh, right - I read the words “last person alive” and took it to mean “Ned of all people would not have had a clue”, instead of its literal meaning. ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-09-the-watchers-on-the-wall-6-8-14-no-spoilers/690348/142 "2014-06-11T04:12:21Z")
I’ve never swallowed the story about Jon being Ned’s bastard. I don’t think he’s Robert’s bastard either: we have Gendry filling that role. I don’t think Gendry’s a McGuffin. Whose bastard is Jon? Is he even an actual bastard? This being GRR Martin, I am certain that at some point we will find out, and that it will be someone important. ---
**Author:** ![Onyerbike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onyerbike/32/5402_2.png) [@Onyerbike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onyerbike)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-09-the-watchers-on-the-wall-6-8-14-no-spoilers/690348/143 "2014-06-11T04:41:59Z")
Does anyone sympathisize with the wildlings at all? I mean, when it gets down to it - these are all just humans running away from terrible ice monsters. The watch fear the walkers as much as anyone else can and yet would gladly see all the wildlings die on their side of the wall if only that their naff little castle holds. ---
**Author:** ![Vashbul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Vashbul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vashbul)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-09-the-watchers-on-the-wall-6-8-14-no-spoilers/690348/144 "2014-06-11T06:21:16Z")
Well, in Howard Zinn’s People’s History of Westeros, you can read their side of the story, and no kings or knights or anyone called Ser Hrufrufruff. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-09-the-watchers-on-the-wall-6-8-14-no-spoilers/690348/145 "2014-06-11T06:38:22Z")
> [@Vashbul](#): > > Well, if you can think back all the way to the first episode, I believe Ned Stark said something to Jon along the lines of one of these days I must tell you about your mother. Of course, that day never came. > > Will we ever get an answer to that one? Who can say - but it might be enlightening. Didn’t Robert love Ned’s sister? IIRC Cersei mentioned Rob drunkenly mentioning her name while he had sex with Cersei. ---
**Author:** ![LouisMasure](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e9a140/32.png) [@LouisMasure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisMasure)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-09-the-watchers-on-the-wall-6-8-14-no-spoilers/690348/146 "2014-06-11T08:53:29Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Didn’t Robert love Ned’s sister? > > IIRC Cersei mentioned Rob drunkenly mentioning her name while he had sex with Cersei. I think the weak point of that theory is that seeing how Snow’s presence affected his wife during 20 years, if it wasn’t his bastard he certainly would have told his wife … Also while talking with Ned in the countryside, Robert mentioned Ned’s mistress so it seems pretty sure John is Ned’s son. But clearly the mother will show up at some point, since if I remember correctly JRRM asked the guy adapting the books for TV to guess who the mother was before agreeing to it (I fear spoilers so I won’t google for the source of that…) ---
**Author:** ![Onyerbike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onyerbike/32/5402_2.png) [@Onyerbike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onyerbike)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-09-the-watchers-on-the-wall-6-8-14-no-spoilers/690348/147 "2014-06-11T10:28:44Z")
Thanks Vashbul I will look into that - appreciated. I rewatched the episode and have come to the belief that potato kid was actually a shapeshifting Jaqen Hagar. I support this with zero evidence other than the wierd look he gives Jon right after pulling off that awesome heart shot, kinda like, ‘your welcome, stranger’. Seemed out of character for a nine-ish year old to be that badass after looking like a mope beforehand. I hope Jon ends up being truly highborn and can reclaim/rebuild Winterfell in time. I’m not 100 % sure walking alone and swordless into an enemy stronghold will benefit that hope, though. I’m preparing for tragedy myself. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-09-the-watchers-on-the-wall-6-8-14-no-spoilers/690348/148 "2014-06-11T11:20:48Z")
> [@Onyerbike](#): > > I rewatched the episode and have come to the belief that potato kid was actually a shapeshifting Jaqen Hagar. Not the way he was cowering and sobbing when the Wildings attacked. I am sure we will see Jaqen H’ghar again, but not as Potato Ollie. ---
**Author:** ![Smid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/838e76/32.png) [@Smid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smid)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-09-the-watchers-on-the-wall-6-8-14-no-spoilers/690348/149 "2014-06-11T13:09:12Z")
I guess Jaqen H’ghar is the Boba Fett of the GOT world… ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@Charlie\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-09-the-watchers-on-the-wall-6-8-14-no-spoilers/690348/150 "2014-06-11T14:15:37Z")
> [@Onyerbike](#): > > \ > I hope Jon ends up being truly highborn and can reclaim/rebuild Winterfell in time. That is a lovely thought, for sure. But that is not the way Martin writes. It is far more likely that both Jon Snow as well as Winterfell will both be destroyed in some ghastly manner. I get the feeling that Martin is just not happy unless any character that he has built up is destroyed in great mayhem and manevolence. Martin is basically, a prick! ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-09-the-watchers-on-the-wall-6-8-14-no-spoilers/690348/151 "2014-06-11T14:22:20Z")
> [@LouisMasure](#): > > But clearly the mother will show up at some point, since if I remember correctly JRRM asked the guy adapting the books for TV to guess who the mother was before agreeing to it (I fear spoilers so I won’t google for the source of that… At this point, have we just given up on this being the “no book; show only” thread? Can the sticky be changed to reflect this? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-09-the-watchers-on-the-wall-6-8-14-no-spoilers/690348/152 "2014-06-11T15:21:32Z")
> [@Onyerbike](#): > > Does anyone sympathisize with the wildlings at all? I mean, when it gets down to it - these are all just humans running away from terrible ice monsters. The watch fear the walkers as much as anyone else can and yet would gladly see all the wildlings die on their side of the wall if only that their naff little castle holds. Mance Rayder, apparently. Other that that, do the people of Westeros seem particularly sympathetic towards other humans, period? The Wall is sort of a Hadrian’s Wall on steroids. The intent may have been to protect against future White Walker incursions, but lacking an actual threat, the result has been to separate anyone caught north of the Wall from the rest of Westeros. Those north of the wall became “Wildling” barbarians and those south became the “civilized” (although no less barbaric) people of Westeros. And like Hadrain’s Wall (or other permanent fortifications throughout history), the GoT Wall is of dubious military and economic benefit. Determined people seem to be able to circumvent the Wall, almost at will, by going over, around or through it. The Black Fort is obviously vulnerable to being flanked. And if and when the White Walkers attack in force, I’m sure they will possess some sort of supernatural powers or devices that render the Wall as nothing more than a speed bump or tripwire that serves little purpose other than to buy some time for Westeros. > [@Charlie](#): > > It is far more likely that both Jon Snow as well as Winterfell will both be destroyed in some ghastly manner. Technically…‘more destroyed’ for Winterfell. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-09-the-watchers-on-the-wall-6-8-14-no-spoilers/690348/153 "2014-06-11T15:21:42Z")
> [@Charlie\_Wayne](#): > > That is a lovely thought, for sure. But that is not the way Martin writes. > > It is far more likely that both Jon Snow as well as Winterfell will both be destroyed in some ghastly manner. > > I get the feeling that Martin is just not happy unless any character that he has built up is destroyed in great mayhem and manevolence. Martin is basically, a prick! Winterfell is already destroyed. ---
**Author:** ![LawMonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@LawMonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LawMonkey)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-09-the-watchers-on-the-wall-6-8-14-no-spoilers/690348/154 "2014-06-11T15:30:32Z")
> [@Onyerbike](#): > > Thanks Vashbul I will look into that - appreciated. …is that a whooshing sound I hear? > [@Smid](#): > > I guess Jaqen H’ghar is the Boba Fett of the GOT world… Boba Fett wishes he had as many lines and as much screen time as Jaqen did. If Jaqen were the Boba Fett of GoT, he would’ve shown up two times in Season 2, said no more than ten words and done nothing even remotely badass. Then, between Season 2 and Season 3, he would’ve gotten a TOTALLY RADICAL action figure. Finally, in Season 3, he would’ve walked off a cliff into a dragon’s mouth. > [@BlackKnight](#): > > At this point, have we just given up on this being the “no book; show only” thread? > Can the sticky be changed to reflect this? Nope. Not at all sure what in the bit you quoted would make you think this. On the other hand, the [Facebook recap](http://happyplace.someecards.com/got-recap-season-4/if-game-of-thrones-took-place-entirely-on-facebook-season-4-episode-9/) is still totally OK in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![GargoyleWB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gargoylewb/32/199_2.png) [@GargoyleWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GargoyleWB)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-09-the-watchers-on-the-wall-6-8-14-no-spoilers/690348/155 "2014-06-11T16:16:55Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I mean was it just me, but did she come across as a bit OUT OF HER FOOKIN MIND?!! I mean even Ollie the Potato Kid gave Jon a “your welcome for saving you from crazy town” nod when he shot her with his bow & arrow. “First you want to kiss me, now you want to kill me. Blow.” -Ash, Army of Darkness I loved this episode. By contrast, the battle of Blackwater was shot very claustrophobically, and did a poor job of providing context of the lay of the castle and the grounds. The Wall was nicely laid out for the viewer with tracking shots, exposition, etc. My favorite bit was ther results of the last stand in the tunnel against the giant, a beautifully done little scene. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-09-the-watchers-on-the-wall-6-8-14-no-spoilers/690348/156 "2014-06-11T16:16:57Z")
I wonder about the faceless men, can they take any face? Can they impersonate someone else? Or do they just have a few stock faces that they rotate through. ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_Prize](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@Sir\_Prize](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_Prize)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-09-the-watchers-on-the-wall-6-8-14-no-spoilers/690348/157 "2014-06-11T16:31:49Z")
> [@LouisMasure](#): > > I think the weak point of that theory is that seeing how Snow’s presence affected his wife during 20 years, if it wasn’t his bastard he certainly would have told his wife … If you know your wife is the kind of fool that would free Jamie Lanister (yes, I know that happened after Ned died but I am sure he had plenty of other occasions to realize she lacks sense) then you might not trust her with a major secret. ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-09-the-watchers-on-the-wall-6-8-14-no-spoilers/690348/158 "2014-06-11T16:53:54Z")
> [@LawMonkey](#): > > Nope. Not at all sure what in the bit you quoted would make you think this. From the sticky: > [@Sticky Thread](#): > > NO SPOILERS > IF IT’S NOT ON SCREEN DURING THE SHOW, DO NOT POST IT IN THESE THREADS. > For the show purists. This includes, but is not limited to, information from the books, TV guides, webzines, ONLINE previews, interviews, promotions, commercials and so on and forth. Previews aired as an epilogue to the show, directly after the show, are fine as there is a reasonable expectation of these being seen by everyone. If you are against previews, put NO SPOILERS/PREVIEWS in the title instead. Do not come into episode-specific threads from the future and post spoilers revealed in later episodes either, as people frequently use these threads as companions while catching up. Seems pretty clear to me. I mean, apparently I’m in the minority - if everyone else wants the rules to be different then it makes sense to allow it. But in that case, someone needs to change the sticky to reflect that. ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-09-the-watchers-on-the-wall-6-8-14-no-spoilers/690348/159 "2014-06-11T16:58:38Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Manse can’t really give orders, and the free folk don’t want to be anywhere near the Wall. They want to go south and get away from the White Walkers. Of course he can. How else would he be able to do…ANYTHING with a group of 100,000. Having them man the wall doesn’t mean having them join the Nights Watch. He makes a deal with Jon to let 98000 through to settle south of the wall and leaves 2000 fighters to support the wall. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-09-the-watchers-on-the-wall-6-8-14-no-spoilers/690348/160 "2014-06-11T17:11:21Z")
> [@Push\_You\_Down](#): > > Of course he can. How else would he be able to do…ANYTHING with a group of 100,000. He explained how in no uncertain terms. 😉 They’ve joined Manse and accepted his leadership, but it’s an alliance rather than a dictatorship. They’re there willingly. This is very important to these people and Ygritte and Tormund explained it to Jon at some length. And their army is kind of disorganized for that reason. > [@](#): > > Having them man the wall doesn’t mean having them join the Nights Watch. He makes a deal with Jon to let 98000 through to settle south of the wall and leaves 2000 fighters to support the wall. He can only leave them there if they choose to stay, and I’m skeptical that they would do so. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-09-the-watchers-on-the-wall-6-8-14-no-spoilers/690348.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-09-the-watchers-on-the-wall-6-8-14-no-spoilers/690348.md?page=9)