# Game of Thrones 4.10 "The Children" 6/15/14 \[no spoilers\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 15, 2014, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819 "2014-06-15T14:36:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/221 "2014-06-17T13:24:20Z")
Can we pause for a moment to bid a fond farewell to The Hound? He was really growing on me as a character, growing from a killing machine to a very flawed human. Arya & The Hound was my favorite sub-plot. I hated how he went out (if he did). (Although in true soap opera fashion, nobody’s dead until you see the corpse go up in flames, and maybe even not then) ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/222 "2014-06-17T13:34:54Z")
> [@grude](#): > > Yea but it was clear that eventually shit was going to go supernatural. But unfortunately in doing so it is starting to lose what, for me, is what made it stand out. I’ll still watch, but I’m not quite as excited anymore. Especially with this whole “The Children” thing. Brann has bored the living shit out of me. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/223 "2014-06-17T13:47:03Z")
I think it is obvious Bran is going to be important going forward and I had an oh no thought… Is it possible one or more characters are secretly being warged 24/7, like Bran does to Hodor? That would turn me off the show. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/224 "2014-06-17T13:54:28Z")
> [@grude](#): > > Is it possible one or more characters are secretly being warged 24/7, like Bran does to Hodor? No - unless there’s a maester out there who’s invented feeding tube technology. Jojen warned Bran that he needed to un-warg before he lost himself in Summer, and starved to death. ---
**Author:** ![Neverending\_Elbow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e274bd/32.png) [@Neverending\_Elbow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neverending_Elbow)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/225 "2014-06-17T14:04:53Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > No - unless there’s a maester out there who’s invented feeding tube technology. Jojen warned Bran that he needed to un-warg before he lost himself in Summer, and starved to death. Well, if you don’t mind never returning to your body and taking on someone else’s identity, it would be possible. It’s probably easier to forget who you originally were in an animal body than a human body. ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/226 "2014-06-17T14:08:58Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > I can’t believe we got to the end of season 4 without some sort of Stark reunion. > > Was anyone else surprised that Tywin didn’t know that Cersei’s children were all fathered by Jaime? A few episodes back, Tywin said something to Jaime like “and you will go back to Casterly Rock and have children named Lannister”. I thought Tywin was alluding to Cersei’s kids. I’m pretty sure he knew but was refusing to believe it. Cersei was just twisting the knife there. Something just occurred to me. Jamie can’t inheiret and Tyrion is a fugitive so that means whoever marries Cersei is heir to the Lannister fortune. Unless I guess it goes to Tommen I guess. If it doesn’t and Cersei is forced to marry the Tyrell brother, they will control heir own fortune and the Lannister fortune…wow. ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/227 "2014-06-17T14:13:41Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > To be honest, I am worried about the direction the show is heading. I know we’ve heard about “Winter is Coming” and have seen stuff north of The Wall for some time, but the focus had always been in other areas, “Fantasy without the magic” as the show was first sold to me by a friend. > > Now it seems that two massive players in the story going forward are precisely the two areas I am the least interested in: Dani and Brann. Frankly, I have found the whole “tree, three eyed raven etc etc” part so boring and now it appears we have more annoyingly bad child actors and a ramping up of the magical side of things (hell, someone was throwing fireballs). That isn’t the show I was enjoying and I am worried that as it continues I am going to become less and less interested. It’s funny you posted this because as I was watching I was wondering if the heavier and heavier fantasy was going to turn people off. Personally I like it but as a person who disliked how mysticism took over Battlestar Galactica I can understand. It is also kind of how Lost became more and more straight Sci Fi the one season with all the time jumps (and the fell hard into its own mysticism). I Said to myself when the girl was throwing fireballs “This is going to turn off a segment of the audience.” ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/228 "2014-06-17T14:13:58Z")
> [@Neverending\_Elbow](#): > > Well, if you don’t mind never returning to your body and taking on someone else’s identity, it would be possible. I think the point of what Jojen said was that you’d starve to death if you warged for too long, thus you can’t “never return to your body”. (Well, at least for as long as it took your original body to die.) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/229 "2014-06-17T14:14:15Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > And Daenerys, who is supposedly good and wise, is time and again shown to be an idiot. I don’t think this can be accidental. So what would you do, in Daenerys’ position? She freed the slaves. That upended the social order. As an unintended consequence, you have an old man that was a slave to a wealthy family where he served as a teacher, and was thereby respected, now huddled in a shelter. So she now realizes that the social order won’t change quickly. OK, she says, you can sell yourself into servitude, but no such contract can last longer than a year. I am very interested to hear your solution. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/230 "2014-06-17T14:19:36Z")
> [@Quimby](#): > > Something just occurred to me. Jamie can’t inheiret and Tyrion is a fugitive so that means whoever marries Cersei is heir to the Lannister fortune. Unless I guess it goes to Tommen I guess. If it doesn’t and Cersei is forced to marry the Tyrell brother, they will control heir own fortune and the Lannister fortune…wow. Tywin said at one point that their silver mines hadn’t produced any silver in three years and they’ve spent a fortune winning and keeping the throne. They still own Casterly Rock (which I don’t think we’ve ever seen) but don’t have much of a source of income. There’s not much of a fortune left. Plus I don’t know if Cersei will ever want to marry anyone other than her brother. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/231 "2014-06-17T14:32:45Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > Arya straight up letting the Hound lie and suffer, when he was begging, that was too much. I think you might be mistaken as to whether is more cruel to actively jam a blade into a person to kill him or not. Is Arya being merciless there? It’s not like flipping a switch on a chemical injection execution set up. It’s raw and physical. I’m not so sure she is. Every time she kills she loses something. Maybe it shows growth that this time she chooses not to pay that price. > [@](#): > > The Hound wasn’t that bad. We know that he certainly wasn’t bad enough that he would do what Arya just did. He was under orders to kill the butchers boy. I cannot really root for characters who basically do torture. Not that bad? He has killed countless upon countless people in cold blood “under orders” and not under orders. He’s a murderer and a thief. He chose every day to be a literal hatchet man for a sadist. Sure once or twice he might have done something that wasn’t horrific. Like refraining from raping Sansa. Yeah, how much extra credit do you get from that. He wasn’t as cruel as his brother, sure, but check your perspective. > [@](#): > > Tyrions killing of Tywin didn’t exactly hit the mark either. First, I’m not really convinced that he had done enough bad that he deserved to be killed. What is the worst thing he has done? How much thought are you giving to the man that Tywin Lannister is? What is the worst thing he’s done? How about genocide? You know that song that every Lannister henchman sings, “The Rains of Castamere”? That’s a song about Tywin Lannister ordering the murder of an entire family, down to suckling babes, and all their retainers and servants, and anyone within proximity of their castle. Tywin Lannister ordered the Sack of Kings Landing, unleashing the Mountain on a city of common people to be raped and slaughtered. The Mountain, acting on Tywin’s orders, smashed a newborn baby’s head in and then raped and murdered his mother. After Catelyn Stark arrested Tyrion, Tywin Lannister again unleashed the Mountain to burn, hack, and slaughter the innocent people if the Riverlands. How about his role in arranging the Red Wedding where in his own society, violation if the guest right is considered unthinkable? Tywin Lannister is a ruthless murderous beast, who, at present, holds a high enough position to have others do his dirty work for him. As for what was the worst thing he did to Tyrion? How about Tysha? How about knowing that he was innocent of killing Joffrey and arranging his conviction anyhow? How about suborning perjury from the woman he knew his own son loved and then taking her as his lover? How about his attitude that a dead whore means nothing, a woman whom he was just sharing a bed with? How bad is Tywin Lannister anyway? ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/232 "2014-06-17T14:39:22Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So what would you do, in Daenerys’ position? > > She freed the slaves. > > That upended the social order. As an unintended consequence, you have an old man that was a slave to a wealthy family where he served as a teacher, and was thereby respected, now huddled in a shelter. > > So she now realizes that the social order won’t change quickly. OK, she says, you can sell yourself into servitude, but no such contract can last longer than a year. > > I am very interested to hear your solution. I love the Danaerys story line, in part because of this. She’s been stomping through Essos as Moses/Jesus/Abraham Lincoln/Mother of Dragons, and harsh reality is smacking her in the face in the form of the Law of Unintended Consequences. She’s learning to rule, on the fly. ---
**Author:** ![Sterling\_Archer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Sterling\_Archer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterling_Archer)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/233 "2014-06-17T14:44:03Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Tywin said at one point that their silver mines hadn’t produced any silver in three years and they’ve spent a fortune winning and keeping the throne. They still own Casterly Rock (which I don’t think we’ve ever seen) but don’t have much of a source of income. There’s not much of a fortune left. They’re still the top dog Lord of the western kingdom, warden of the west, and all that. They have plenty of tax income even if their own gold mines stopped paying out. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/234 "2014-06-17T14:50:23Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > To be honest, I am worried about the direction the show is heading. I know we’ve heard about “Winter is Coming” and have seen stuff north of The Wall for some time, but the focus had always been in other areas, “Fantasy without the magic” as the show was first sold to me by a friend. Your friend was full of it. That said, yes, I also have less interest in the magical parts of the story, and in part that’s because it’s been segregated from the rest of the show. Maybe these stories will get more interesting if it’s not just Jon Snow on his own and Bran on his own. I’ve always been interested by the Dani stuff, so that one isn’t a problem for me. I’ll try to be patient with the Children of the Forest stuff, but the Wall storyline is now tied more closely to the main plot because Stannis is involved. > [@jsc1953](#): > > Can we pause for a moment to bid a fond farewell to The Hound? He was really growing on me as a character, growing from a killing machine to a very flawed human. Arya & The Hound was my favorite sub-plot. I hated how he went out (if he did). I don’t think he grew much. He was always a cruel, cynical man with a human streak inside him (he was kind to Sansa, too). He somehow managed to get more cynical as time went on, which was impressive in its own way. That said, he was an interesting and grounded character, and he made a mark on Arya - which might help her live but won’t make her a nicer person. > [@Bricker](#): > > So what would you do, in Daenerys’ position? > > She freed the slaves. > > That upended the social order. As an unintended consequence, you have an old man that was a slave to a wealthy family where he served as a teacher, and was thereby respected, now huddled in a shelter. > > So she now realizes that the social order won’t change quickly. OK, she says, you can sell yourself into servitude, but no such contract can last longer than a year. > > I am very interested to hear your solution. The whole situation has some interesting parallels to the U.S. Civil War and Reconstruction. And I do think it’s worthwhile that in a show about people fighting to rule a kingdom, we periodically get a look at what ruling a kingdom actually looks like. We haven’t had much of that since Tyrion was replaced as acting Hand of the King. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/235 "2014-06-17T14:53:17Z")
> [@Quimby](#): > > Something just occurred to me. Jamie can’t inheiret and Tyrion is a fugitive so that means whoever marries Cersei is heir to the Lannister fortune. Unless I guess it goes to Tommen I guess. If it doesn’t and Cersei is forced to marry the Tyrell brother, they will control heir own fortune and the Lannister fortune…wow. There are other Lannisters, such as Tywin’s brother Kevan (from season 1) and Kevan’s son Lancel (who also used to bang Cersei) – Jaime and Tyrion have also reference other nameless Lannister relatives. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/236 "2014-06-17T14:54:11Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > And actually anyone who is fighting for the Iron Throne is going to be responsible for the deaths of many innocents. So either she needs to get out of the competition or inure herself to the wanton destruction. Not really. Well, maybe in the case of Mereen, if she plans to leave the Slaver Coast behind entirely and never look back. But holding territory requires the support (or at least, consent) of a broad cross-section of the population, as both the US and the current Iraqi government have learned to their sorrow. You can coerce a lot of consent out of folks, but if they’re convinced that their lives are intolerable under your rule, _and_ that you aren’t actually capable of crushing all resistance, you have a serious problem. All of which is to say, Dany has good reason to want to convince her subject she takes their welfare seriously. ---
**Author:** ![pseudograph](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pseudograph/32/19768_2.png) [@pseudograph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudograph)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/237 "2014-06-17T15:06:46Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > I don’t think hate an contempt is enough reason for me to condone cold blooded murder. But you \*\*are \*\*on board with Tyrell’s engineering the gang rape of his daughter in law as being a valid reason, yes? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/238 "2014-06-17T15:12:51Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So what would you do, in Daenerys’ position? > > She freed the slaves. > > That upended the social order. As an unintended consequence, you have an old man that was a slave to a wealthy family where he served as a teacher, and was thereby respected, now huddled in a shelter. > > So she now realizes that the social order won’t change quickly. OK, she says, you can sell yourself into servitude, but no such contract can last longer than a year. > > I am very interested to hear your solution. Mind if I take a stab at this? I’d probably maintain the absolute ban on slavery. I’d absolutely find a comfortable position for the former tutor - bring him on as an advisor on rehabilitation for former slaves, if nothing else. And in fact, I’d probably try to use as many highly skilled former slaves as possible to build a civil service. The lesson Dany is learning right now is that government is a big, messy job, and it needs a lot of skilled hands. The former high-status slaves are skilled hands who need work. Just as former slave soldiers form the core of her army, former slave clerks/teachers/merchants can form the core of Dany’s bureucracy. And there is plenty of real-world historical precedent for this - slaves of powerful men often served as what we’d call bureaucrats in Rome, for example. As to the unskilled former slaves? Dany has the right short-term idea, in using the Unsullied to turn the barracks into safe spaces. Real-world soldiers without policing experience would find the task problematic, but in the fictional universe of GOT, Unsullied are fantastically disciplined and uncorruptible - they can be trusted to carry out orders. Long term, there would probably need to be a program of redistribution of land/business assets from former masters to former slaves, as well as an education program. Will there be a perfect outcome? No. But permitting a return to slavery or indentured servitude will _absolutely_ empower the former Masters, and that’s the worst possible outcome for the new regime. Further, note that we’ve only seen this very, very high-status former slave asking for a return to slavery. So far as we know, no low-status slaves have made this request, and many (perhaps most) gleefully took up arms against the Masters. As problematic as the current situation is, it does seem like it’s a less-bad situation for most of the former slaves, most of the time. Also, a caveat: The very idea of a professional, institutionalized bureaucracy is probably foreign to most of the GOT world, and almost certainly unknown to Dany. So that solution to the problem of former high-status slaves probably wouldn’t be realistic for that character. But, hey, the question was what _I_ would do. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/239 "2014-06-17T15:13:45Z")
The only person who could force Cersei to marry Loras just took a couple crossbow bolts in the shitter, i don’t think she’s going to go through with it anymore. ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/240 "2014-06-17T15:38:01Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I think you might be mistaken as to whether is more cruel to actively jam a blade into a person to kill him or not. Is Arya being merciless there? > > It’s not like flipping a switch on a chemical injection execution set up. It’s raw and physical. > > I’m not so sure she is. Every time she kills she loses something. Maybe it shows growth that this time she chooses not to pay that price. Whatever the reality is, I don’t know, but it’s obvious that the show presents it as the merciful act. They had a whole scene previously where The Hound showed someone else that mercy. And The Hound was begging for it here. > [@](#): > > Not that bad? He has killed countless upon countless people in cold blood “under orders” and not under orders. He’s a murderer and a thief. He chose every day to be a literal hatchet man for a sadist. Who has he killed, where it was not in self defence, and he was not being ordered to do it? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819.md?page=13)