# Game of Thrones 4.10 "The Children" 6/15/14 \[no spoilers\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 15, 2014, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819 "2014-06-15T14:36:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/241 "2014-06-17T15:41:35Z")
> [@pseudograph](#): > > But you \*\*are \*\*on board with Tyrell’s engineering the gang rape of his daughter in law as being a valid reason, yes? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/242 "2014-06-17T15:46:44Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > Who has he killed, where it was not in self defence, or where he was being ordered to do it? He killed three people in the “Fuck the King” tavern brawl, which he started. He didn’t kill that farmer in the Riverlands, but he beat him and stole the last of his money, so that guy’s pretty well fucked. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/243 "2014-06-17T15:48:49Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > He killed three people in the “Fuck the King” tavern brawl, which he started. Once it was clear they recognized him in the tavern, I think it was self-defense. Though when dealing with despicable killers like the men that work for the Mountain, perhaps a stranger killing them in their sleep could be considered self-defense 🙂 Morality in such a world would be rather weird… considering any armed stranger you see might be planning to kill you, in many circumstances I’m not sure if it would be ‘wrong’ to strike first and ask questions later. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/244 "2014-06-17T15:51:05Z")
Question: The Wildings live north of The Wall, right? They are trying to get south of The Wall in order to evade the oncoming winter and the WWs, right? So, how did Stanis get north of The Wall to fight them? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/245 "2014-06-17T15:51:07Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > Who has he killed, where it was not in self defence, and he was not being ordered to do it? I don’t accept your “not being ordered to do it” limitation. You don’t take that job or keep it unless it’s in your character to do it. If your job title is "murderous thug for the Lannisters " and you do such a good job at it for so long, quitting only when asked to run towards fire, then you don’t get let off the hook for it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/246 "2014-06-17T15:51:56Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Question: The Wildings live north of The Wall, right? They are trying to get south of The Wall in order to evade the oncoming winter and the WWs, right? So, how did Stanis get north of The Wall to fight them? He took ships from Braavos and (presumably) landed on the east coast of the North, north of the wall. Then they rode to Castle Black from the north side of the wall. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/247 "2014-06-17T15:53:15Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Question: The Wildings live north of The Wall, right? They are trying to get south of The Wall in order to evade the oncoming winter and the WWs, right? So, how did Stanis get north of The Wall to fight them? He bought a bunch of big ships with the money he borrowed. There was a scene in which the Onion Knight rounded up Sallador Saan and his smugglers. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/248 "2014-06-17T15:55:14Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > He took ships from Braavos and (presumably) landed on the east coast of the North, north of the wall. Then they rode to Castle Black from the north side of the wall. > [@Acsenray](#): > > He bought a bunch of big ships with the money he borrowed. There was a scene in which the Onion Knight rounded up Sallador Saan and his smugglers. OK, thanks. I didn’t realize that could be done, but I guess it makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/249 "2014-06-17T15:57:19Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > Whatever the reality is, I don’t know, but it’s obvious that the show presents it as the merciful act. They had a whole scene previously where The Hound showed someone else that mercy. And The Hound was begging for No, the show presents it as being a merciful act in the view of the Hound, who is mot a reliable narrator, being that his experience has given him an extreme view of life. That doesn’t require us to believe that that’s what Arya believes is merciful. The show doesn’t ask is to surrender our sense if morality or what is right so that we can agree with the characters. The Hound doesn’t give his speech about mercy to tell us that WE should agree that this this mercy, but to show us something about him. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/250 "2014-06-17T15:59:47Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Once it was clear they recognized him in the tavern, I think it was self-defense. Not at all. Polliver was quite friendly and invited the Hound to join them in raping and pillaging the countryside. They were horrible people and won’t be missed by anyone, but they weren’t a threat to them at that point. The Hound just loathed them and what they stood for. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/251 "2014-06-17T16:01:47Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by **Marley23** > Not at all. Polliver was quite friendly and invited the Hound to join them in raping and pillaging the countryside. I took it as Polliver trying to trick the Hound… from my memory of the scene, it was clear to both Polliver and the Hound that as soon as he was recognized, a fight was inevitable. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/252 "2014-06-17T16:08:24Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I took it as Polliver trying to trick the Hound… from my memory of the scene, it was clear to both Polliver and the Hound that as soon as he was recognized, a fight was inevitable. Why would Polliver have wanted a fight? There was no bounty on Sandor at that point. In fact the fight helped make that happen. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/253 "2014-06-17T16:11:50Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Question: The Wildings live north of The Wall, right? They are trying to get south of The Wall in order to evade the oncoming winter and the WWs, right? So, how did Stanis get north of The Wall to fight them? Stannis wasn’t south of the wall, Stannis was in Braavos. I imagine he simply landed on that side. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/254 "2014-06-17T16:14:43Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Why would Polliver have wanted a fight? There was no bounty on Sandor at that point. In fact the fight helped make that happen. I thought there was already a bounty, but it was increased by Tywin. And Polliver had several friends present. Plus, Polliver is surely aware of the hatred between the two brothers (the Hound didn’t exactly hide his feelings), and I imagine he thinks the Mountain would be pleased if they brought him in. As tough as the Hound is, I’m pretty sure he’s not dumb enough to start a 1 on 5 (or however many) fight just because he doesn’t like the guys. When he and Arya were outside, it was Arya that wanted to go in once they saw the Mountain’s men – the Hound wanted to stay outside. I think he knew as soon as he went in that there would be a fight. ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/255 "2014-06-17T16:16:55Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > No, the show presents it as being a merciful act in the view of the Hound, who is mot a reliable narrator, being that his experience has given him an extreme view of life. > > That doesn’t require us to believe that that’s what Arya believes is merciful. The show doesn’t ask is to surrender our sense if morality or what is right so that we can agree with the characters. > > The Hound doesn’t give his speech about mercy to tell us that WE should agree that this this mercy, but to show us something about him. I clearly got the impression that Arya has the same belief, and just did not think The Hound deserved mercy. What if we assume that this is the case, how do you feel about Arya’s act then? ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/256 "2014-06-17T16:20:28Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > He killed three people in the “Fuck the King” tavern brawl, which he started. He didn’t kill that farmer in the Riverlands, but he beat him and stole the last of his money, so that guy’s pretty well fucked. The people in the tavern deserved to die. Arya agreed on that point. Regarding the farmer he would be dead anyway. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/257 "2014-06-17T16:25:50Z")
Just watched [the scene](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWmGrR9a818) again. On second look, I’ll revise my opinion. The Hound didn’t want to go into the tavern, but once Arya went in he was resigned (and ready) for a fight. And once the Hound showed hostility to Polliver, Polliver knew the fight was coming too – he looks back to make sure his men are ready. So I don’t think the Hound was really looking for a fight, because he didn’t want to go into the tavern at all once he saw men he recognized, but he knew it was going to happen once Arya went inside. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/258 "2014-06-17T16:27:09Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > Regarding the farmer he would be dead anyway. Whether this is so or not, beating up a poor farmer and stealing his only money is a pretty rotten thing to do. If he had stayed on to work and protect the farm as the farmer offered, the farmer and his daughter would probably survive as long as he was there. ---
**Author:** ![Neverending\_Elbow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e274bd/32.png) [@Neverending\_Elbow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neverending_Elbow)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/259 "2014-06-17T16:31:21Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > I think the point of what Jojen said was that you’d starve to death if you warged for too long, thus you can’t “never return to your body”. (Well, at least for as long as it took your original body to die.) Sorry, I wasn’t clear enough. By “never returning to your old body” I really meant _never_, that is letting it die and living permanently in a different body. In a human body (as opposed to a wolf or hawk body) you possibly wouldn’t forget your humanity. Of course this is all idle speculation, we don’t know , whether the soul can live on without the original body, or whether they are somehow linked, what a long-term ride in a different human would mean for the warg, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/260 "2014-06-17T16:35:08Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Just watched [the scene](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWmGrR9a818) again. > > On second look, I’ll revise my opinion. The Hound didn’t want to go into the tavern, but once Arya went in he was resigned (and ready) for a fight. And once the Hound showed hostility to Polliver, Polliver knew the fight was coming too – he looks back to make sure his men are ready. So I don’t think the Hound was really looking for a fight, because he didn’t want to go into the tavern at all once he saw men he recognized, but he knew it was going to happen once Arya went inside. Yes, things change after the Hound says “Fuck the King” and rejects what Polliver is offering. But up to that point Polliver is being friendly (in his horrible way) and not trying to trap him or anything. He thinks he’s dealing with a fellow brigand. > [@mr.jp](#): > > The people in the tavern deserved to die. Yes, they did. They were horrible people. But it wasn’t self-defense and he wasn’t ordered to do it. The Hound provoked the fight because he didn’t like them. > [@](#): > > Arya agreed on that point. Of course she did! She sneaked into the tavern to kill Polliver, which set the whole thing in motion. > [@](#): > > Regarding the farmer he would be dead anyway. You realize you’re taking the word of the man who attacked the farmer and stole all his money, right? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819.md?page=14)