# Game of Thrones 4.10 "The Children" 6/15/14 \[no spoilers\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 15, 2014, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819 "2014-06-15T14:36:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Sterling\_Archer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Sterling\_Archer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterling_Archer)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/301 "2014-06-17T21:49:21Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > And don’t confuse Qarth with Tarth Haha, no, I thought Qarth was closer to Volantis I guess. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/302 "2014-06-17T23:15:33Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > Was anyone else surprised that Tywin didn’t know that Cersei’s children were all fathered by Jaime? A few episodes back, Tywin said something to Jaime like “and you will go back to Casterly Rock and have children named Lannister”. I thought Tywin was alluding to Cersei’s kids. I was positive Tywin was tacitly recognizing the incest by that comment, but now in hindsight it also makes sense if he had no idea. The only grandchildren he has are named Baratheon, so it could be that he was just telling Jaime to sire some Lannister children in order to preserve the family name. > [@Acsenray](#): > > No, the show presents it as being a merciful act in the view of the Hound, who is mot a reliable narrator, being that his experience has given him an extreme view of life. Not really. The show has shown it being a merciful act by that farmer they ran across, the Hound, and Jojen’s sister, so that’s three different viewpoints, two of which are not the Hound, who all agree that it’s a merciful act. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/303 "2014-06-17T23:18:46Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > He thought he was making her angry enough to kill him but making someone angry at you is not the way to go about asking for mercy. The way he was going on and on about how bad he was reminded me of this joke [ul] [li]Masochist: Hit me, kick me, hurt me.[/li][li]Sadist: No[/li][/ul] The Hound should have known better. ---
**Author:** ![Smid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/838e76/32.png) [@Smid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smid)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/304 "2014-06-18T01:10:40Z")
A few points: Arya and Sansa. Even if Arya knew that her sister was down the road, and she could meet up with her, I don’t think she would. By now she is completely independent and her own person. Most of the time at the beginning the two sisters seemed to hate each other, so no love’s lost there. I don’t think Arya would be seeking out Sansa and the last of her kin (does she even know that her brothers are supposed to be dead?). Rickard Stark. I guess he didn’t make it back to Castle Stark by now. Or a big army was in the way. He was last seen with Osha at Crasters keep right? I took Shae as Tywin’s spy from the beginning. I wasn’t quite sure at first, but recent behaviour seems to confirm it. Tywin has her in his bed, and it wouldn’t really be known by anyone else (especially Tyrion), so why? Previous relationship. I think Bronn was sent off to find a prostitute and brought Shae back. Wouldn’t be hard to seed her into Tyrions company at that point. Stannis. I took this as him _acting_ like a king should. And knowing the importance of the north and the wall. None of the Lannisters care, and treat the north as something of little value, but its the largest kingdom and free for the taking. Where else could Stannis land though, otherwise? Lannisters. Their house is in tatters, their lord dead, the only male heir convicted of kingslaying (and being a dwarf, Jamies also a kingslayer, which doesn’t matter). Jamie and Cersei seem to be planning to be openly in a relationship (and indeed, this might discredit the overall claim to Kings Landing too). Their cleverest family member is now an enemy, as well. And Varys saw the ruin as well, and left. Kings Landing is ripe for the taking. Where’s the spy network, the military leader, the money? Bickering families and discredited kings. That’s what left. The likes of Dorn, or even Tyrell might step into the gap… The dragons. So they’ve lost one. There has been the idea that she can control them all so far, but it appears she can’t. So the biggest went off and did what it wanted. She has to lock up (and potentially train) the remaining dragons in case they decide to leave. She has exerted control over them before (killing evil warlocks), but something has changed now… But indeed, the strongest willed Stark, the cleverest Lannister and the remaining Targarian are all on the same continent now, with a common enemy (and remember Tyrion has always been kind of sympathetic towards the Starks, and how badly treated they have been). A team up! Ok, it’s not Marvel, its Game of Thrones. Ser Jorah might be the glue here though… ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/305 "2014-06-18T01:23:00Z")
> [@Smid](#): > > Rickard Stark. I guess he didn’t make it back to Castle Stark by now. Or a big army was in the way. He was last seen with Osha at Crasters keep right? Rickon? He and Osha never went north of the Wall, so they were never anywhere near Craster’s. Osha was supposed to take him to a family friend. I can’t remember whether it was Jojen and Meera’s family or someone else. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/306 "2014-06-18T01:28:43Z")
Tywin lost his male heir, the Lannisters still have several males around to carry the line. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/307 "2014-06-18T01:40:24Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Ah, I see what you’re saying. I’m not an expert on sailing, but you can’t tell me that traveling on a ship and traveling on a homemade raft or little boat are equally safe. That body of water is called The Shivering Sea (more specifically the Bay of Seals), and the name “shivering sea” should highlight one of the risks. And 100,000 people trying to travel that way sounds like chaos. They’d drown by the thousands. I think it’s easy to see why they’d rather stay on land and try to get through a tunnel. I wonder if anyone’s done the math on how long it would take 100,000 people to get through a tunnel of width X…? (I bet _someone_ has.) > [@Marley23](#): > > They would outnumber them just like they outnumber the men at Castle Black. Yep. > [@BlackKnight](#): > > Rafting across an open frigid sea is a bad idea unless you have absolutely no other options. Why would they head into the open sea? Surely it would be more sensible to hug the shore. > [@BlackKnight](#): > > And even if by some chance they pulled that off and began rafting southward along the coast, all it takes is one Crow scout to notice them and the plan is basically fucked. The Night’s Watch could send some archers to lob flaming arrows at the sea-borne rafts as soon as they got within range, and have soldiers waiting to finish off those who make it to shore. They might still make it through due to sheer numbers, but countless of their numbers would die. Yes to all that, but: what need for all Wildlings to wade into the surf at the same time? Why not do little convoys of a few dozen boats (or rafts) at a time? The Night’s Watch has no high-intensity artificial flood lights for sweeping the seas. On overcast nights, whatever is passing offshore would be well-nigh invisible to the Watch. Obviously the point I’m making with this ‘Wildlings don’t need the tunnel’ line of argument is that it’s a bit of a plot hole. Given that the _Song_ world is roughly based on the European map, it’s like saying that no one could have gotten from Scotland into England by boat…which is clearly absurd. Yes, yes, Martin may have added fancy dangers to his map that don’t exist on the real British Isles map, but he (apparently) hasn’t been all that specific about reasons that the coastline is not a viable way to travel. (Having Stannis’ huge army land there certainly undercuts the ‘it’s too treacherous’ claim, anyway.) Of course the _Song_ fantasy world doesn’t have to be 100% internally consistent in order for the story set there to be interesting. But for me there are quite a few examples of ‘the author didn’t really think this through’ that stand out. By contrast, Philip Pullman’s fantasy world (in the His Dark Materials trilogy) is far more carefully worked out. (The same is true for Middle Earth, I believe, but I haven’t read those books for quite a while so am not sure if the claim is as good, there.) ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/308 "2014-06-18T01:55:41Z")
When you have 100 thousand people, basically an entire civilization, “take over the lightly guarded tunnel” beats “making tens of thousands of boats” by a very large margin. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/309 "2014-06-18T02:05:10Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Why would they head into the open sea? Surely it would be more sensible to hug the shore. It’s simply not feasible in any way, shape or form. You’d likely lose half of all people to hypothermia and drowning. Probably more. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/310 "2014-06-18T02:12:05Z")
The wildlings do come around the wall in small groups. The group Osha came with got around the wall. But doing that, in freezing water, as a group on the run, with no shipbuilding resources, for a hundred thousand people, many of whom are old or infirm or children, would be pretty difficult, especially if they feel like they’re being pursued from the north. Plus, there are only 3 manned castles left on the wall. Castle black, and the two castles that guard the ends of the wall by the sea. So not only would it likely not be an unopposed landing, but during the time it takes them to build the ships, they might be discovered by a patrol. ---
**Author:** ![SeaDragonTattoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@SeaDragonTattoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeaDragonTattoo)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/311 "2014-06-18T02:27:35Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Obviously the point I’m making with this ‘Wildlings don’t need the tunnel’ line of argument is that it’s a bit of a plot hole. Given that the _Song_ world is roughly based on the European map, it’s like saying that no one could have gotten from Scotland into England by boat…which is clearly absurd. > > Yes, yes, Martin may have added fancy dangers to his map that don’t exist on the real British Isles map, but he (apparently) hasn’t been all that specific about reasons that the coastline is not a viable way to travel. (Having Stannis’ huge army land there certainly undercuts the ‘it’s too treacherous’ claim, anyway.) > > Of course the _Song_ fantasy world doesn’t have to be 100% internally consistent in order for the story set there to be interesting. But for me there are quite a few examples of ‘the author didn’t really think this through’ that stand out. By contrast, Philip Pullman’s fantasy world (in the His Dark Materials trilogy) is far more carefully worked out. (The same is true for Middle Earth, I believe, but I haven’t read those books for quite a while so am not sure if the claim is as good, there.) 😕 Is it really so hard to understand “NO SPOILERS - THE BOOKS DON’T EXIST IN THIS THREAD” - is it really? There’s another thread for that. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/312 "2014-06-18T02:51:24Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > The group Osha came with got around the wall. Do we know that Osha’s group went around the wall, as opposed to climbing over it like Ygritte’s group? In either case, for all we know, 9 out of 10 people in her group may have died getting south of the wall. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/313 "2014-06-18T03:03:48Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Do we know that Osha’s group went around the wall, as opposed to climbing over it like Ygritte’s group? > > In either case, for all we know, 9 out of 10 people in her group may have died getting south of the wall. I can’t remember off-hand in which episode (Googling could likely reveal it) but Osha does mention, sometime in Season 3 I think, that she and her group crossed through the Bay of Seals. If you look at the HBO maps you’ll see the Bay of Seals is in the east, by Eastwatch-by-the-Sea, one of the three remaining castles on the wall (as described by Jon). So they crossed through a frozen sea, probably on simple rafts, under the nose of an inhabited castle. This was likely only possible because they were a small group. ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/314 "2014-06-18T03:49:34Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Yes to all that, but: what need for all Wildlings to wade into the surf at the same time? Why not do little convoys of a few dozen boats (or rafts) at a time? The Night’s Watch has no high-intensity artificial flood lights for sweeping the seas. On overcast nights, whatever is passing offshore would be well-nigh invisible to the Watch. So they should wait until the weather in in their favor? With a zombie army at their back? How much time do you expect this would take? Again, there are plenty of reasons why this idea is a terrible one: (1) They would first have to travel to the shore. (2) They would have to gather materials for rafts. (How long to cut down X trees? How many chains or ropes do they need? How many do they have? What do they use to make more?) (3) They would have to build the rafts. (4) They would either have to build enough for everyone, or send across small groups at a time, then have someone bring the rafts back. (Or are they making even _more_ rafts?) (5) They would have to cross frigid waters. (6) They would have to avoid detection, at least until they had a sizable portion of their army across so they could maintain a foothold on the beaches. (7) This all has to happen before the zombie army reaches them, or else they’ll be fighting on two fronts. Three, actually, if they have their forces divided by the wall when the zombies arrive. (8) They have to do this while holding together a disparate coalition that was previously not all that friendly amongst themselves. (9) And finally, any moving mass of people needs a supply chain of some sort. As the saying goes, “An army marches on its stomach.” What this means is that the longer they take to capture the Wall, the weaker their forces become. The raft idea would take several days at the very least, and more realistically probably a couple of weeks. They supposedly have around 100,000 people. That’s an enormous number to supply with the level of technology they have. _And many of these people are not soldiers or sailors - in fact, some of them are children or elders!_ It’s not a plot hole just because they don’t state an explanation explicitly in dialogue. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/315 "2014-06-18T04:11:34Z")
Add to that – in order for them to cross a few at a time to avoid detection by the Nights Watch would take years. They would have to secretly build a city capable of supporting 100,000 people in the meantime. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/316 "2014-06-18T04:54:12Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > My problem with it, is that it made her unsympathetic to me. (And she was one of the very few characters I had previously been sympathetic towards in the show.) A slow, torturous death, I think very few people deserve that. And The Hound was not one of them. I’ll agree. The Hound, Arya and Tyrion have been three of my favorite characters and I was really disturbed by both Arya’s decision to let him die a slow painful death after he’d just been mortally wounded trying to protect her and Tyrion’s murder of Shae, while I’ve had to rethink my attitude towards the Hound after he beat and robbed the farmer who’d offered him food and shelter. That said, yeah, I’d love it if both he and his brother make it, but I think only his brother will. ---
**Author:** ![Wile\_E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c37758/32.png) [@Wile\_E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wile_E)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/317 "2014-06-18T05:06:21Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > … > > Meera hesitated for maybe 30 seconds, and then she tearfully killed him. The scene between Arya and the Hound was much longer and she never moved a muscle. > > … Meera’s life was also in danger, she didn’t have any time to agonize over the decision. Jojen was as good as dead and she did not have the luxury of taking time to comfort him while he was dying. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/318 "2014-06-18T06:17:54Z")
> [@SeaDragonTattoo](#): > > 😕 Is it really so hard to understand “NO SPOILERS - THE BOOKS DON’T EXIST IN THIS THREAD” - is it really? There’s another thread for that. 😕 Where’s the spoiler? (Spoiler it if you like in case others aren’t seeing it.) ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/319 "2014-06-18T07:57:22Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Rickon? > > He and Osha never went north of the Wall, so they were never anywhere near Craster’s. Osha was supposed to take him to a family friend. I can’t remember whether it was Jojen and Meera’s family or someone else. Not the Reed Family - Osha was taking Rickon to the Umber family. We saw Jon Umber as one of Robb Stark’s supporters in seasons one and two. Had a few lines here and there, [lost a couple of fingers to a direwolf](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snYE3_GGVcU). ---
**Author:** ![Onyerbike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onyerbike/32/5402_2.png) [@Onyerbike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onyerbike)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/320 "2014-06-18T09:24:32Z")
I felt this ep was a little rushed. This episode really needed to be two, but oh well. I did finally get to see that underhanded old codger bite it and at the hands of the person most deserving. That was a big plus. About Arya and the Hound; I feel I need to step up for the girl here. C’mon guys, the guy is doomed - head injuries, broken leg, infected old wounds. Otherwise though he was lucid and able to use his hands - a most inmportant distinction when considering what is mercy in this situation. Clearly he would just off himself soon after she refused him with his own dagger, and that would or should have been obvious to Arya. The hound merely asked that his companion end it for him - a sort of comradery, a sort of honor. But the hound had a sordid past, and while not unforgiveable I think him having to do the deed himself was a bit of recompence for that. Arya without saying it told him to man up. Shakester reminds me about the umbers. Are they under the thumb of the boltons now, or have they gone rogue? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819.md?page=17)