# Game of Thrones 4.10 "The Children" 6/15/14 \[no spoilers\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 15, 2014, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819 "2014-06-15T14:36:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/121 "2014-06-16T16:18:06Z")
> [@Declan](#): > > Well that obi-wan type that was in the tree with Bran, did say he would never walk again, but he would fly. Most of us are just assuming that means Ravens:) Of course if warging into ravens or dragons counts as walking, then warging into Hodor or a wolf counts as walking. Get with the program, Riddly Old Guy. From a character standpoint I was sorry to see Tywin go, but I guess they hadn’t had enough chaos in King’s Landing lately. They wrapped things up for him in a fitting way. The guy who never stopped talking about the family line died because he had no idea what was happening to the actual human beings in his family. He didn’t understand what he’d done to any of his children and couldn’t scheme his way out of the emotional impact of his parenting or his coldness. As a bonus, he was killed Joffrey-style. (Also: strangling a prostitute with her necklace and then killing your father with a crossbow? That was a rejected Doors song.) > [@Hampshire](#): > > Tyrion’s escape after killing Tywin pretty much seals his fate as suspect #1 in Tywin’s murder. Yeah, there won’t be any other suspects. Tyrion got out of his cell, killed the ex-lover who testified against him, and then killed the father who sentenced him to death. There’s no reason to suspect anyone else- but will people wonder how he got out? > [@Quimby](#): > > I thought they said they were going to Essos and Braavos is the capital of Essos isn’t it? Or is Essos a separate city? Or did I mishear everything? Braavos is a city-state in Essos. There is no capital of Essos; it’s not as unified as Westeros is. > [@Enderw24](#): > > The Wall’s all that’s left. But when the guy says he’s Braavosi, suddenly the thought clicks that she has another place to go and there’s nothing left for her in Westeros. She’s going to Braavos. Exactly. > [@](#): > > Here’s a question my wife and I were pondering: what did the captain think when she handed him the coin? I think it was payment of sorts. She got the coin as a favor from a Faceless Man and she was cashing it in. The captain knew he could take the coin and use it as his own favor, should the need arise. I don’t think she gave him the coin. She showed it to him. > [@](#): > > My wife had a different theory: The captain saw the coin and assumed that Arya _was_ a Faceless Man. You saw that he genuflected. Yes, that was what I thought. I’m not sure she makes a convincing Faceless Man and that might be a dangerous thing to pretend to be, but it got her what she wanted. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/122 "2014-06-16T16:19:56Z")
> [@Hampshire](#): > > I’m suprised Tyrion was so quick to be locked inside a box and be put on a boat by Varys. This was the guy that threw him under a bus during the trial. Perhaps his “I never forget” comment carried more weight than I thought. The first thing I thought of was that wizard that Varys had in a box in his office and I thought that was going to be Tyrion’s fate. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/123 "2014-06-16T16:20:18Z")
I just made the connection - WESTeros and Essos, like, west and east. Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/124 "2014-06-16T16:23:20Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I just made the connection - > > WESTeros and Essos, like, west and east. Carry on. Braavo! ---
**Author:** ![Critical1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Critical1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Critical1)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/125 "2014-06-16T16:25:45Z")
> [@infinitii](#): > > That’s what I think happened too. The “previously on” sequence said that she could give the coin and say the words to any person from Bravos and he would do a favour for her. So she used it on the Captain so he would take her to the wall. > > If she just wanted to go to Bravos, it sounded like he would have given her a ride there anyway, even without the coin. Why waste it on that? No, he told her if she wanted to become a faceless man (woman) to give the coin to a bravosi and say the words. It wasn’t about any favors. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/uWI9pLW4zm0/hqdefault.jpg "Game of Thrones 2x10 "Arya and Jaqen H'ghar"") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWI9pLW4zm0) ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/126 "2014-06-16T16:31:04Z")
Do we have enough information to interpret the Shae situation? 1. She genuinely loved Tyrion and all the scenes we saw of them together were true, but she became jealous when he stopped being with her when he was married with Sansa, and then his speech to her to finally get her to go away really hurt her, and she thought it was genuine. So she was willing to betray him. And then either she went of her own volition, or the Lannisters intercepted her and paid off Bronn to get ahold of her. At that point they threatened and/or bribed to make her give that testimony. But she seemed happy to do it, by injecting hurtful things into it and “I’m just a whore, remember?” At that point, either she thought it would be an extra betrayal for her to be with Tywin, or she simply needed the money/a new supporter at that point. 1. She was working to some degree with Tywin all along, to spy on and manipulate Tyrion. Her scenes with him and their loved certainly seemed genuine - I don’t think it was ever hinted that she was anything but loyal to him - but then as a prostitute she would be skilled at making men think she was more fond of them than she actually was. It would explain why she’s not afraid of Tywin whenever Tyrion tries to warn her, and it explains why she ends up with Tywin when her job with Tyrion is done. Tywin has also shown in the past the willingness to manipulate his son through whores. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/127 "2014-06-16T16:32:06Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Do we have enough information to interpret the Shae situation? > > 1. She genuinely loved Tyrion and all the scenes we saw of them together were true, but she became jealous when he stopped being with her when he was married with Sansa, and then his speech to her to finally get her to go away really hurt her, and she thought it was genuine. So she was willing to betray him. And then either she went of her own volition, or the Lannisters intercepted her and paid off Bronn to get ahold of her. At that point they threatened and/or bribed to make her give that testimony. But she seemed happy to do it, by injecting hurtful things into it and “I’m just a whore, remember?” > > At that point, either she thought it would be an extra betrayal for her to be with Tywin, or she simply needed the money/a new supporter at that point. > > 1. She was working to some degree with Tywin all along, to spy on and manipulate Tyrion. Her scenes with him and their loved certainly seemed genuine - I don’t think it was ever hinted that she was anything but loyal to him - but then as a prostitute she would be skilled at making men think she was more fond of them than she actually was. It would explain why she’s not afraid of Tywin whenever Tyrion tries to warn her, and it explains why she ends up with Tywin when her job with Tyrion is done. Tywin has also shown in the past the willingness to manipulate his son through whores. I think 1 is far more likely. ---
**Author:** ![araminty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b5e925/32.png) [@araminty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/araminty)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/128 "2014-06-16T16:35:33Z")
[quote=“Critical1, post:125, topic:690819”] No, he told her if she wanted to become a faceless man (woman) to give the coin to a bravosi and say the words. It wasn’t about any favors. [/QUOTE] Did you watch the clip you linked? It says nothing about becoming a Faceless Person, he explicitly says, if you want to find me again, do the thing. ---
**Author:** ![thinksnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thinksnow/32/2849_2.png) [@thinksnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thinksnow)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/129 "2014-06-16T16:49:24Z")
[quote=“Critical1, post:125, topic:690819”] No, he told her if she wanted to become a faceless man (woman) to give the coin to a bravosi and say the words. It wasn’t about any favors. [/QUOTE] Not quite: “If the day comes when you must find me again, just give that coin to any man from Braavos and say these words to him…” ([link](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWI9pLW4zm0#t=131)) I don’t think he means “find me, specifically” though, so you are essentially right, in that showing that coin will pretty much get her to the place where she could become a Faceless Man. ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/130 "2014-06-16T16:55:19Z")
I’m glad I’m not the only one who thought she used coin to force transit to the Wall. I’ll have to watch the scene again. Anyone else notice the eye Melissandre was giving Jon during the Crow bonfire? ---
**Author:** ![Critical1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Critical1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Critical1)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/131 "2014-06-16T17:18:11Z")
> [@araminty](#): > > Did you watch the clip you linked? It says nothing about becoming a Faceless Person, he explicitly says, if you want to find me again, do the thing. Yeah but the whole conversation is him trying to get her to join the club, there is a strong implication that the coin is there should she change her mind. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/132 "2014-06-16T17:27:13Z")
Something that has gone unremarked was the conversation between Jon Snow and Mance Rayder about Mag the Mighty and Grenn, which I thought was a lovely little moment in a very crowded episode. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/133 "2014-06-16T17:32:04Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Something that has gone unremarked was the conversation between Jon Snow and Mance Rayder about Mag the Mighty and Grenn, which I thought was a lovely little moment in a very crowded episode. Yeah, that was poinant, Mag the king, and Grenn the Farmer. Was nice to see Jon not equating worth and rank. Declan ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/134 "2014-06-16T17:32:17Z")
> [@infinitii](#): > > That’s what I think happened too. The “previously on” sequence said that she could give the coin and say the words to any person from Bravos and he would do a favour for her. No, that is not what The Faceless Man said. [Watch it again.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBV0uOLx8jM#t=107) He said, “If the day comes when you must find me again, just give that coin to any man from Braavos, and say these words to him: Valar Morghulis.” > [@](#): > > So she used it on the Captain so he would take her to the Wall. No, she used it to find the Faceless Man. That’s what it is for. We really don’t know where the captain is taking her. But it is more likely he is in Braavos that at the Wall. > [@](#): > > If she just wanted to go to Bravos, it sounded like he would have given her a ride there anyway, even without the coin. I saw nothing to indicate he was willing to take anywhere, to the Wall or to Braavos. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/135 "2014-06-16T17:33:06Z")
I’m pretty sure that as king, Stannis could retroactively make Jon Snow the rightful heir to Winterfell had he wanted to. > [@Marley23](#): > > Right. I don’t find that part very complicated: Tyrion broke her fucking heart and was very cruel to her. He knows, and we know, that he had good reasons for doing so. But she didn’t know any of that. What she knew was that they were in love, then he married Sansa, wouldn’t touch her, tried to get rid of her, and then said some awful stuff to her to make her go away. If she truly didn’t understand why he was doing what he was doing, then she was a fool. Not only should it have been evident to her that the Lannisters and the court of Kings Landing were extremely dangerous, but also Tyrion kept telling her exactly why. > [@Quimby](#): > > I thought they said they were going to Essos and Braavos is the capital of Essos isn’t it? Or is Essos a separate city? Or did I mishear everything? Essos is a huge continent where Braavos, Pentos, Mereen, the Dothraki Aea, etc., are. It has no capital. > [@Marley23](#): > > I don’t think she gave him the coin. She showed it to him. This makes sense to me. > [@](#): > > Yes, that was what I thought. I’m not sure she makes a convincing Faceless Man and that might be a dangerous thing to pretend to be, but it got her what she wanted. Since she was told to do this, I suspect that it is known in Braavos that such coins can be used by those who are on errands for the faceless men as well as the faceless men themselves. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/136 "2014-06-16T17:38:48Z")
> [@Declan](#): > > Yeah, that was poinant, Mag the king, and Grenn the Farmer. Was nice to see Jon not equating worth and rank. > > Declan I also like that they really humanized the giants in the last two episodes. They didn’t seem like monsters, but like real people. Also, regarding the coin, we know “Valar Marghulis” means “All men must die.” Have the ever explained what the response “Valar Dohaeris” means? ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/137 "2014-06-16T17:51:23Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > 1. She was working to some degree with Tywin all along, to spy on and manipulate Tyrion. Her scenes with him and their loved certainly seemed genuine - I don’t think it was ever hinted that she was anything but loyal to him - but then as a prostitute she would be skilled at making men think she was more fond of them than she actually was. It would explain why she’s not afraid of Tywin whenever Tyrion tries to warn her, and it explains why she ends up with Tywin when her job with Tyrion is done. Tywin has also shown in the past the willingness to manipulate his son through whores. This is how I interpret what was going on. Tywin has done it before; surely Tyrion thought his first wife loved him just like he thought Shae loved him. Shae was never afraid of the Lannisters, least of all Tywin. She made this clear in multiple episodes. I’m not seeing a rational reason for this unless she was on Tywin’s payroll the whole time. The episode when Tyrion sent her away, a scene or two (or possibly an episode) before Tyrion actually sends her, there’s a different scene where Tywin orders someone to bring Shae to Tywin’s tower. It’s possible that when she’s brought there this is their first interaction, but I think it makes more sense that she was in his employ all along. > [@Acsenray](#): > > If [Shae] truly didn’t understand why [Tyrion was mean to her to get her to leave], then she was a fool. Not only should it have been evident to her that the Lannisters and the court of Kings Landing were extremely dangerous, but also Tyrion kept telling her exactly why. Her reaction makes more sense if she was Tywin’s girl all along. ---
**Author:** ![araminty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b5e925/32.png) [@araminty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/araminty)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/138 "2014-06-16T17:53:25Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > Also, regarding the coin, we know “Valar Marghulis” means “All men must die.” Have the ever explained what the response “Valar Dohaeris” means? Hmm, I find I know what it means, but not HOW I know. I’ve not read the books. Just in case, I’ll spoiler tag it: All men must serve. ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/139 "2014-06-16T17:53:53Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I just made the connection - > > WESTeros and Essos, like, west and east. Carry on. Don’t feel so bad. It was four years in when I realized that Khalieesi was the feminine form of Khal. I realized they were the “King” and “Queen” of the Dothraki but just never realized they were basically the same word. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-4-10-the-children-6-15-14-no-spoilers/690819/140 "2014-06-16T17:56:56Z")
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