# Game of Thrones 5.01 "The Wars to Come" 4/12/15 \[Show discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 12, 2015, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-01-the-wars-to-come-4-12-15-show-discussion/717486 "2015-04-12T14:37:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2015, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-01-the-wars-to-come-4-12-15-show-discussion/717486/161 "2015-04-14T23:05:29Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Speaking for myself — sex and nudity are always more sexy in a quality mainstream production with good actors, a good story, and good production values. > > If mainstream dramatic productions were hardcore and explicit sexually, I wouldn’t ever click on stuff that was purely pornographic, because overall those things aren’t good—they look cheap and amateurish, the people aren’t as attractive as real actors, and the acting is laughably bad. There isn’t only poorly played hard core porn, out there. There are tons of artful erotic pictures of extremely beautiful women. > [@EllisDee](#): > > I suppose I can answer your question this way: I don’t even _understand_ your question. > > I want to see every attractive (woman) in the world naked. Let’s pick a random example named Mary Sue. If she’s cute, I want to see her naked. Going on the internet and seeing naked pictures of Jane Doe does nothing to satisfy my interest in seeing Mary Sue naked. I guess it makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![BenOliver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/439d5e/32.png) [@BenOliver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BenOliver)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2015, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-01-the-wars-to-come-4-12-15-show-discussion/717486/162 "2015-04-14T23:20:46Z")
I thought Margery looked …kind hungrily at Oliver… and jealous at her brother enjoying himself. Not a lot happened but I think they’re setting it up for the next 3 episodes. Loved that we get to see another, disheveled, angle of Dany! She has seemed like a boring, 2 dimensional character for so long! ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2015, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-01-the-wars-to-come-4-12-15-show-discussion/717486/163 "2015-04-14T23:20:55Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > There isn’t only poorly played hard core porn, out there. There are tons of artful erotic pictures of extremely beautiful women. None of it is in the context of an actual world-class dramatic performance. In the same way that I enjoy explicit sex written by the best authors in my favorite novels, I would love to have explicit sex in the best TV and film dramas by world-class directors and screenwriters and actors. If I’m invested in the story and characters, that makes the erotic experience better. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2015, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-01-the-wars-to-come-4-12-15-show-discussion/717486/164 "2015-04-14T23:45:48Z")
> [@JSexton](#): > > Robb? I don’t think that counts. Surely if Melisandre’s magic cares about royal blood, it take actual royalty. Gendry’s blood worked because his father sat a throne. If putting on a crown and declaring yourself king for a couple weeks is all it takes, then Melsiandre can make all the royal blood she wants with a supply of slaves and a Burger King hat. No, I think the magic knows the difference. If Jon Snow has royal blood, it’s not via Robb Stark. Robb was king in the north, i don’t think he had an actual throne but he was a king accepted as one by the people he ruled. That counts. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2015, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-01-the-wars-to-come-4-12-15-show-discussion/717486/165 "2015-04-15T00:02:20Z")
> [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](#): > > I’m not sure if predictions are frowned upon, so here is my spoilered take on Melisandre and Jon Snow: > > I think that Melisandre is Jon’s mother (and that she knows it). When she first looked at him through the fire in the last episode of last season, I just had a feeling based on the way she looked at him. I went back to watch the 1st 3 seasons. There was a scene when Ned and King Robert are hunting and discussing their actions during the overthrow of the Mad King. Robert asks Ned to remind him of the name of the woman he had sex with during the war and says: “Was it Me-, Mel- something?” Ned doesn’t answer, but this did somewhat validate my prediction. If true, this would also make the question about what Melisandre wants with Jon more interesting. After all, he doesn’t have royal blood as far as we know. Unless, of course, she’s his mother and knows better. > > That’s the great thing about the show. There are almost no wasted lines. Just about every statement means something and many provide clues or insights that foreshadow future revelations. After watching the first 4 seasons again, there is so much more I learned. Once we learn that Littlefinger is the real facilitator of just about everything that happens in the Westeros part of the show, I realize that his words and actions in prior episodes reveal so much. > > Why does everyone here think that Stannis is so rigid and unforgiving? Is that from the books? Because he seems quite even-keeled to me. He certainly believes in duty and rules, but the fact that he freed Davos and effectively allowed Davos to free Gendry tells me that he’s not all-in on Melisandre. He didn’t even punish Davos for letting Gendry get away. > > Also, why did Robert assign the unattractive island of Dragonstone to Stannis, but allow Renly to remain alongside him in King’s Landing? I believe that Stannis made a comment in a prior season about not liking that decision. > > Also, how did Stannis acquire such a well-trained army so fast? I know he borrowed a substantial amount of money from the Bank of Braavos, but where did he find so many ready soldiers? > > Finally, what _is_ the deal with the googly eyes placed on the corpses? Watched that scene again on youtube. Robert says Jon’s mother was a common girl named Meryl or something and Ned says her name was Wylla. Robert then says you’ve never described her to me and Ned says I never will. It sounds suspicious that Ned would hide her description from his best friend and king. But I could just be reading too much into that. When Ned said he would talk to Jon about it the next time he saw him, it seems like there was a story to be told. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2015, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-01-the-wars-to-come-4-12-15-show-discussion/717486/166 "2015-04-15T02:53:38Z")
So it seems like Dany hasn’t seen her dragons since she locked them away. I had assumed there was some sort of dragon training going on in the background that wasn’t shown for lack of budget, but could she simply be letting them stay idle and do their own thing all day? She can’t control them and she’s made no effort to train them. They’re wild beasts, but her ancestors rode them and used them as weapons, so they have to be at least trainable to some degree. It seems like she’s not even trying, and so now she’s got some angry, wild, untrained dragons on her hands, which are as much a liability as an asset. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2015, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-01-the-wars-to-come-4-12-15-show-discussion/717486/167 "2015-04-15T03:21:12Z")
> [@BenOliver](#): > > I thought Margery looked …kind [of] hungrily at Oliver… and jealous at her brother enjoying himself… I noticed that, too. For a minute there I thought we were going to see a threesome. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2015, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-01-the-wars-to-come-4-12-15-show-discussion/717486/168 "2015-04-15T03:23:24Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > She can’t control them and she’s made no effort to train them. Who knows how to train a dragon? ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2015, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-01-the-wars-to-come-4-12-15-show-discussion/717486/169 "2015-04-15T03:42:15Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > So it seems like Dany hasn’t seen her dragons since she locked them away. Of course that might have been yesterday. But yeah, I agree that that storyline is either nonsensical, or else clumsily told, since it sure looks to us like she locked them up in the dark and then decided to pop back in several months later with absolutely no intervening contact or effort or thought. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2015, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-01-the-wars-to-come-4-12-15-show-discussion/717486/170 "2015-04-15T04:16:56Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Who knows how to train a dragon? Talk to my daughter. She read the whole 12 books in this series last year. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2015, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-01-the-wars-to-come-4-12-15-show-discussion/717486/171 "2015-04-15T04:26:52Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > So it seems like Dany hasn’t seen her dragons since she locked them away. She only locked up two of them. The black one hasn’t been seen for two weeks. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2015, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-01-the-wars-to-come-4-12-15-show-discussion/717486/172 "2015-04-15T05:00:47Z")
My point was that we’ve never seen her trying to train the dragons. She hasn’t talked to animal experts nor people familiar with dragon lore. She hasn’t been shown to experiment trying to train them. I was being generous in assuming that there was some sort of training going on in the background unseen to the audience, but the scene in this episode suggests there isn’t, that she doesn’t know what to do with them and doesn’t try. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2015, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-01-the-wars-to-come-4-12-15-show-discussion/717486/173 "2015-04-15T05:07:42Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > In conclusion, Jon could be of Ned’s blood but not be Ned’s son. He could be saving Benjen from being executed by The Night’s Watch, saving Brandon’s honor (or something equally stupidly noble and Ned-like) or saving his nephew from being murdered by his best friend. Still, if any of the above was the case, he should have told Caitlyn and saved both her and Jon a whole lotta heartache. But now that I’m thinking about this, not telling Caitlyn would also be a good idea because her stiff-necked pride turned everything she touched to shit. > > Good Lord, everybody in this story is either dumb or a piece of garbage. I love it. Dany’s brother kidnapped and raped Ned’s sister who is dead, this is mentioned in the first season when Robert and Ned visit her grave. Then mentioned again I think the last time by Obeberon last season. A popular theory is Jon is the result of that rape, and Ned lied to protect his nephew. I don’t see how it could matter in story, unless it lets him ride one of Dany’s dragons or something. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2015, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-01-the-wars-to-come-4-12-15-show-discussion/717486/174 "2015-04-15T11:17:37Z")
> [@grude](#): > > Dany’s brother kidnapped and raped Ned’s sister who is dead, this is mentioned in the first season when Robert and Ned visit her grave. Then mentioned again I think the last time by Obeberon last season. A popular theory is Jon is the result of that rape, and Ned lied to protect his nephew. > > I don’t see how it could matter in story, unless it lets him ride one of Dany’s dragons or something. This whole conversation started with Melisandre’s need for royal blood and how Ned insisted Jon “shared his blood” and how both of these things could be true. I thought Oberon was pissed because _his_ sister was raped to death by The Mountain. I don’t remember him mentioning Ned’s sister at all. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2015, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-01-the-wars-to-come-4-12-15-show-discussion/717486/175 "2015-04-15T11:39:47Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > This whole conversation started with Melisandre’s need for royal blood and how Ned insisted Jon “shared his blood” and how both of these things could be true. Ned did not have royal blood. EDIT: Actually, on second read I’m pretty sure that’s your point. Apologies. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2015, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-01-the-wars-to-come-4-12-15-show-discussion/717486/176 "2015-04-15T12:56:28Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > My point was that we’ve never seen her trying to train the dragons. We have seen her teaching them voice commands. What do you expect her to do if they have stopped obeying? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2015, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-01-the-wars-to-come-4-12-15-show-discussion/717486/177 "2015-04-15T13:30:42Z")
I think the basic problem for Daenerys that her family hasn’t had dragons in many generations, so no one is alive with first-hand knowledge of how to work with and train them. The family ruled for so long that I’ll bet any written books on dragon training are probably still at King’s Landing. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2015, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-01-the-wars-to-come-4-12-15-show-discussion/717486/178 "2015-04-15T13:43:48Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I think the basic problem for Daenerys that her family hasn’t had dragons in many generations, so no one is alive with first-hand knowledge of how to work with and train them. The family ruled for so long that I’ll bet any written books on dragon training are probably still at King’s Landing. Didn’t her brother have dragons? Not the gold crown guy, the older one. Raegar? ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2015, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-01-the-wars-to-come-4-12-15-show-discussion/717486/179 "2015-04-15T14:02:42Z")
No, there’s been no dragons in a long time. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2015, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-01-the-wars-to-come-4-12-15-show-discussion/717486/180 "2015-04-15T15:32:59Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > This whole conversation started with Melisandre’s need for royal blood and how Ned insisted Jon “shared his blood” and how both of these things could be true. I thought Oberon was pissed because _his_ sister was raped to death by The Mountain. I don’t remember him mentioning Ned’s sister at all. When he is talking to Tyrion he mentions them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-01-the-wars-to-come-4-12-15-show-discussion/717486.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-01-the-wars-to-come-4-12-15-show-discussion/717486.md?page=10)