# Game of Thrones 5.02 "The House of Black and White" 4/19 \[Show discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 19, 2015, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046 "2015-04-19T16:30:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046/61 "2015-04-20T15:52:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I don’t know if the show has made clear what their legal status is with respect to rights to the throne. It’s made very clear that bastards are not in the line of succession. Jon Snow is a good example - he was never in line for Lord of Winterfell, no matter if any of the 5 natural Stark children would live or die. Of course, the Baratheons feeling insecure and murdering Robert’s bastards is in conflict with that. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046/62 "2015-04-20T16:02:47Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > It’s made very clear that bastards are not in the line of succession. Jon Snow is a good example - he was never in line for Lord of Winterfell, no matter if any of the 5 natural Stark children would live or die. Of course, the Baratheons feeling insecure and murdering Robert’s bastards is in conflict with that. I think it was made clear that Joffrey did that for no good reason. If I recall correctly, Tyron was outraged that they had been killed when they posed no threat to the throne. ---
**Author:** ![Tangent](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tangent/32/3098_2.png) [@Tangent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tangent)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046/63 "2015-04-20T16:30:47Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Yeah, I figured that it was more along the lines of “we” as in our little community that is so invested it responds, as a collective, poorly to even the most remote suggestion that our beloved might be at any point in time good but not great. Yeah, that kind of “we.” I think “we” respond just fine to well-reasoned criticism of the show. The poster to whom you were responding was simply pointing out that it’s a common complaint that the early episodes in each season are a little slow compared to later ones. But go on tilting at windmills. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046/64 "2015-04-20T17:05:04Z")
I don’t think the show runners feel any compulsion to make each episode riveting. They’re crafting a season as a whole, not 10 one hour stories. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046/65 "2015-04-20T17:20:37Z")
> [@BlackKnight](#): > > The ancient Greeks had the Colossus of Rhodes back in 300 BCE. That was reportedly about 100 feet tall. The Braavos statue appears to be much taller than that, but I don’t know of any _ **in-show** _ information about its height, unless someone wants to take a screenshot and do some trigonometry to figure it out. Yes, true, but it’s been shown that with the tech of the day, the Colossus of Rhodes could not have straddled the harbor. ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046/66 "2015-04-20T17:21:39Z")
I loved the scene with Gilly and Sam. “I know…S.” I wonder if Jon will try to get redbeard wildling… Sumthing sumething Giantsbane? to take on Mance’s role as leader. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046/67 "2015-04-20T17:26:10Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I think it was made clear that Joffrey did that for no good reason. If I recall correctly, Tyron was outraged that they had been killed when they posed no threat to the throne. My take was that he killed them to avoid other people reaching the same conclusion as Ned: Baratheon = Dark hair. ---
**Author:** ![One\_More\_Time\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e19adc/32.png) [@One\_More\_Time\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_More_Time_Again)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046/68 "2015-04-20T17:27:05Z")
~sniff~ I miss Tywin. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046/69 "2015-04-20T17:35:51Z")
> [@Mighty\_Girl](#): > > My take was that he killed them to avoid other people reaching the same conclusion as Ned: Baratheon = Dark hair. That would have been a sensible, if evil, reason. But given that he himself didn’t seem to believe the incest rumors, and also seemed incapable of that level of self-reflection and political sensitivity, it seems more likely that he just hated the idea of bastard half-siblings… ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046/70 "2015-04-20T18:02:08Z")
Early in the series, we saw Ned looking in the record books, and noting that _every_ Baratheon child was dark-haired and concluding or confirming in his mind that Cersei’s children were not Robert’s. But I can’t remember; did other characters whisper about that? Were there whispers about Joffrey and the others being the product of incest? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046/71 "2015-04-20T18:09:31Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Early in the series, we saw Ned looking in the record books, and noting that _every_ Baratheon child was dark-haired and concluding or confirming in his mind that Cersei’s children were not Robert’s. But I can’t remember; did other characters whisper about that? Were there whispers about Joffrey and the others being the product of incest? That’s why John Arryn was killed. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046/72 "2015-04-20T18:28:11Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > That’s why John Arryn was killed. Yeah, that whole “the blood is strong” thing. That was how Ned got pointed in the direction of the book in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![StarvingButStrong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/starvingbutstrong/32/335_2.png) [@StarvingButStrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StarvingButStrong)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046/73 "2015-04-20T18:31:27Z")
Actually, the whispers needn’t have been about incest. Isn’t a queen’s cheating on the king generally considered treason? And the kid’s NOT being the king’s get is the most important point. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046/74 "2015-04-20T18:31:45Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Early in the series, we saw Ned looking in the record books, and noting that _every_ Baratheon child was dark-haired and concluding or confirming in his mind that Cersei’s children were not Robert’s. But I can’t remember; did other characters whisper about that? Were there whispers about Joffrey and the others being the product of incest? I seem to remember Stannis sending ravenmail all over Westeros proclaiming that Cersei’s kids were the products of incest. However, I don’t know that the hair-color clue was mentioned. I think Joffrey had them killed perhaps out of fear or perhaps because he didn’t like bastards or perhaps because he was a crazy MF. Or a combination of those reasons. Going by Earth History, I don’t think random offspring of tavern-maids would\* ever\* be considered in the line of succession. Perhaps someone raised in a noble household from birth & trained in the gentlemanly arts might be legitimized–by applying to whomever was passing as king–by Westeros Rules. Earthly example: Henry FitzRoy, whose last name meant King’s Son–the only bastard that Henry VIII ever recognized. The sonless king made Young Henry a duke but the boy died young… So, Jon Snow _could_ have become Jon Stark–but he’s now Commander of the Night’s Watch… I mostly enjoyed the episode & don’t mind that it was a bit slow moving. There are a lot of characters to coordinate. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046/75 "2015-04-20T18:33:33Z")
I’m not sure whether Stannis’s decree would have been well-received or widely accepted. The one big rule about the Night’s Watch is that it’s for life. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046/76 "2015-04-20T18:49:37Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I’m not sure whether Stannis’s decree would have been well-received or widely accepted. The one big rule about the Night’s Watch is that it’s for life. Well current Stannis is being told to go pound sand by a ten year old girl ruler of bear island, so that doesn’t bode well for any of his decrees. If he won and became the actual King though there wouldn’t be much anyone could do about it. ---
**Author:** ![Emiliana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f0a364/32.png) [@Emiliana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emiliana)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046/77 "2015-04-20T18:59:34Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Stannis is only the legit king if Robert WAS the legit king. But Robert simply killed Rhaegar Targaryen, who was the legit king after his father Aerys Targaryen was killed by the “Kingslayer,” Jamie Lannister. > > So if Aerys was the legit king, then Rhaegar was his heir, and then after Rhaegar was killed, Rhaegar’s son and heir Viserys Targaryen was the rightful king. After Viserys was killed by melted gold, courtesy of Drogo, then, no more male heirs available, Daenerys Targaryen, the daughter of Rhaegar and sister of Viserys, is the rightful monarch. > > And even if we agree that Robert was king by right of conquest, then his children are his heirs. Obviously we know that Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella are illegitimate, but we also know Robert has bastard children aplenty. I don’t know if the show has made clear what their legal status is with respect to rights to the throne. For that matter, how does one go about showing, now, that Tommen is illegitimate? Wasn’t it Varys who said that power lies where people believe it to lie? Who is the rightful king, once military might and presumed lineage come into play, would seem to depend on who is considered legitimate by enough of the nobility. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046/78 "2015-04-20T19:10:06Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > the only plotline that didn’t really advance was Tyrion and Varys, who are still on the road to Mereen (by way of Volantis) (which is where Shae was from?), and at least their scene was short and funny No she’s from elsewhere, maybe (Cersei says). Talisa Maegyr, Rob 's wife is from there. > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > That’s why John Arryn was killed. No, that part is explicitly said. Re: bastards, didn’t Maggy give a specific number? Guess joffrey could’ve heard from mom. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046/79 "2015-04-20T19:11:38Z")
While Brienne is definitely an admirable character (if not exactly one for lighthearted fun) and Littlefinger is a “Boo! Hiss!” villain, and there are some asterisks about her former charges, you have to admit that he makes a good point about how those who engage the Brienne Security Service don’t tend to wind up that great. Renly- dead. Catalyn- dead. Jaime- let’s give the boy a hand. Sansa’s probably right not to switch Littlefinger and a dozen men for Lady Kiss-of-Death. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046/80 "2015-04-20T19:14:24Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > No. I remember all that quite well. I see now – you just didn’t get the wordplay on “Xavier’s School for Gifted Youngsters,” which is the institution created by Professor Charles Xavier to train young mutants to develop and control their powers in the “X-Men,” series; “Xavier School for Gifted Murders” parodies that concept. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046.md?page=5)