# Game of Thrones 5.02 "The House of Black and White" 4/19 \[Show discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 19, 2015, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046 "2015-04-19T16:30:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046/81 "2015-04-20T19:16:00Z")
Well that utterly gripped me but I’m not entirely sure why. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046/82 "2015-04-20T19:19:22Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Viserys and Darnerys are Rhaegar’s younger siblings—Aerys’s children. Rhaegar’s children were killed by Clegane. D’oh! Yep, right. Clegane’s murder of those kids is what had Prince Oberyn so pissed at Clegane; they were his niece and nephew because Rheagar’s wife was Oberyn’s sister. That was a stupid goof on my part. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046/83 "2015-04-20T19:23:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > D’oh! > > Yep, right. Clegane’s murder of those kids is what had Prince Oberyn so pissed at Clegane; they were his niece and nephew because Rheagar’s wife was Oberyn’s sister. That was a stupid goof on my part. He seemed a lot more pissed about the raping and killing of his sister, but yeah he probably wasn’t happy about the kids either. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046/84 "2015-04-20T19:26:20Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > While Brienne is definitely an admirable character (if not exactly one for lighthearted fun) and Littlefinger is a “Boo! Hiss!” villain, and there are some asterisks about her former charges, you have to admit that he makes a good point about how those who engage the Brienne Security Service don’t tend to wind up that great. > Renly- dead. > Catalyn- dead. > Jaime- let’s give the boy a hand. > Sansa’s probably right not to switch Littlefinger and a dozen men for Lady Kiss-of-Death. In general, it seems like if it’s a choice between a not very clever but super loyal and chivalrous warrior vs a clever, conniving, rich and powerful man- you’d have to pick door #2 each time. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046/85 "2015-04-20T19:27:20Z")
> [@Emiliana](#): > > Wasn’t it Varys who said that power lies where people believe it to lie? Who is the rightful king, once military might and presumed lineage come into play, would seem to depend on who is considered legitimate by enough of the nobility. Sure, but then “rightful,” becomes an odd adjective to apply: the guy sitting on the Iron Throne, collecting taxes from the Seven Kingdoms and issuing orders that people obey, is the “rightful,” King, period. He becomes unrightful by virtue of successful rebellion, or death, or abdication. But if he’s in charge, he’s rightful. Right now, Tommen is the rightful King. Stannis has an army, yes, but it’s sitting at the Wall, and it’s not enough to make any changes for him, which is undoubtedly why he wants to augment his forces. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046/86 "2015-04-20T19:30:13Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Sure, but then “rightful,” becomes an odd adjective to apply: the guy sitting on the Iron Throne, collecting taxes from the Seven Kingdoms and issuing orders that people obey, is the “rightful,” King, period. He becomes unrightful by virtue of successful rebellion, or death, or abdication. But if he’s in charge, he’s rightful. The Targaryans disagree 😛 Though it didn’t work out too well for Viserys. ---
**Author:** ![JcWoman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jcwoman/32/2889_2.png) [@JcWoman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JcWoman)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046/87 "2015-04-20T19:45:29Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > While Brienne is definitely an admirable character (if not exactly one for lighthearted fun) and Littlefinger is a “Boo! Hiss!” villain, and there are some asterisks about her former charges, you have to admit that he makes a good point about how those who engage the Brienne Security Service don’t tend to wind up that great. > Renly- dead. > Catalyn- dead. > Jaime- let’s give the boy a hand. > Sansa’s probably right not to switch Littlefinger and a dozen men for Lady Kiss-of-Death. While all that is true, I want to give her a little leeway. She is a woman, not only in a man’s world but also in a man’s job. She’s a tough cookie and I wouldn’t want to get on her bad side, but she still has the disadvantage of being slightly smaller than her peers and with female upper body strength. Don’t forget the time they got her armor and weapons off her (made her wear a dress) and she almost got gang raped before Jaime rescued her. Given the natural disadvantage she has in that world trying to be a female knight, I think she really kicks butt. I adored the fight scenes between her and the Hound. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046/88 "2015-04-20T19:48:44Z")
> [@JcWoman](#): > > While all that is true, I want to give her a little leeway. She is a woman, not only in a man’s world but also in a man’s job. She’s a tough cookie and I wouldn’t want to get on her bad side, but she still has the disadvantage of being slightly smaller than her peers and with female upper body strength. Don’t forget the time they got her armor and weapons off her (made her wear a dress) and she almost got gang raped before Jaime rescued her. Given the natural disadvantage she has in that world trying to be a female knight, I think she really kicks butt. I adored the fight scenes between her and the Hound. The way she is portrayed, I’m pretty sure she’s absolutely _not_ “slightly smaller” than her peers (quite the opposite, in fact – she towers over nearly all of her male co-stars, except for perhaps Rory McCann as the Hound), and she is portrayed as being as strong as or stronger than most of the warriors she fights (except for, perhaps, the Hound again, who was also weakened by an infected, festering wound). ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046/89 "2015-04-20T19:55:19Z")
Is it odd that we’ve seen two episodes but Tommen hasn’t yet appeared? (I think he might have been in the first episode, but didn’t talk.) Is the actor at the age that his voice is changing, or did he have a growth spurt, and they’re trying to avoid dealing with it? (In the ABC series Lost, there was a teenage character named Walt, who was absent from a long time because the actor grew a lot more than could be explained in the story.) ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Barchetta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/da6949/32.png) [@Red\_Barchetta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Barchetta)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046/90 "2015-04-20T19:58:38Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > (In the ABC series Lost, there was a teenage character named Walt, who was absent from a long time because the actor grew a lot more than could be explained in the story.) Funny that that was the _one_ thing that decided not to show for the reason that it couldn’t be explained ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046/91 "2015-04-20T20:05:23Z")
There has been a lot of talk about the producers worrying about the kid actors aging too much. I assume it’s because of that we aren’t seeing Rickon or Tommen. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046/92 "2015-04-20T20:14:21Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > There has been a lot of talk about the producers worrying about the kid actors aging too much. I assume it’s because of that we aren’t seeing Rickon or Tommen. There isn’t any reason that aging would be a problem, this isn’t like Lost. We haven’t seem Rickon or Tommen because there’s been no reason to show them. Cersei basically defacto ruling for Tommen was the whole point of that small council meeting scene, having him around would be not only pointless but take away from that. ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046/93 "2015-04-20T20:15:25Z")
> [@Emiliana](#): > > Yep, you’re right. I had forgotten that. Ned surely would have “gotten around” to legitimizing Jon Snow had there not been a good reason not to do so. The reason was his Wife hated Jon Snow and what he represented. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046/94 "2015-04-20T20:17:25Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > The Targaryans disagree 😛 Though it didn’t work out too well for Viserys. Of course the Targaryans disagree, and they have the best claim to “rightful” monarchy of anyone. Daenrys is the rightful ruler, if we’re discussing inheritance. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Burden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/958977/32.png) [@Jack\_Burden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Burden)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046/95 "2015-04-20T20:22:33Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > That’s why John Arryn was killed. I thought Jon Arryn was killed because his wife was a crazed lactation junkie with an unhealthy Littlefinger obsession. Why he pushed her into killing Arryn is open for debate, but it seems clear in retrospect that the War of the Five Kings is pretty much a direct result of the Tully girls getting in the game. Meanwhile their incompetent brother kept Robb from winning the war and can’t even manage a proper funeral. House Tully: Poisoning the Seven Kingdoms like bad fish ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046/96 "2015-04-20T20:28:44Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Of course the Targaryans disagree, and they have the best claim to “rightful” monarchy of anyone. Daenrys is the rightful ruler, if we’re discussing inheritance. Yeah, well they took the throne_s_ by force too, note, and only a few hundred years ago. And like I said- they dont seem to accept females sitting on the Iron Throne. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046/97 "2015-04-20T20:28:57Z")
Meh, Robb and Cat did a lot more to sabotage their war effort than Edmure. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046/98 "2015-04-20T20:50:14Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > There has been a lot of talk about the producers worrying about the kid actors aging too much. Per one source, the reason that Bran is being pulled in a litter when last seen was because 1- When the actor hit his pubescent growth spurts he became too heavy for Kristian “Hodor” Nairn to comfortably carry 2- When you saw his legs and how tall he’s gotten it’s hard to believe him as the kid from Season 1 Has anyone clocked how much time has passed in the story since Season 1: Episode 1? Does two years sound about right, or has it been a bit more? Following just the Dany plot, she conceived and carried a baby to term and then spent a few months wandering in the wilderness as her dragons grew and then perhaps a year taking over cities and what not- so, 2.5 years perhaps? ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Burden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/958977/32.png) [@Jack\_Burden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Burden)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046/99 "2015-04-20T20:53:00Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Meh, Robb and Cat did a lot more to sabotage their war effort than Edmure. No doubt, but Edmure disobeyed Robb’s orders and went seeking his own triumph which prevented Robb from springing his trap on Tywin’s army and forcing the Lannisters to come to terms. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046/100 "2015-04-20T21:08:40Z")
> [@Jack\_Burden](#): > > No doubt, but Edmure disobeyed Robb’s orders and went seeking his own triumph which prevented Robb from springing his trap on Tywin’s army and forcing the Lannisters to come to terms. Of course at the same time, Robb could certainly have included a clause in his orders saying “note, it is ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL that you don’t pursue the enemy forces even if you think you can win a small victory, this is part of a larger plan, yada yada”, probably something that a more experienced general who was more familiar with his subordinates would have done. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046.md?page=6)