# Game of Thrones 5.02 "The House of Black and White" 4/19 \[Show discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 19, 2015, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046 "2015-04-19T16:30:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046/101 "2015-04-20T21:17:56Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > That’s why John Arryn was killed. If I have the story right, he was killed because Littlefinger first discovered the incest, then indirectly (or directly?) informed Jon Arryn, and then set up Arryn’s murder with Lysa to make it appear that the Lannisters had him killed. ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046/102 "2015-04-20T21:22:25Z")
> [@Jack\_Burden](#): > > …Why he pushed her into killing Arryn is open for debate… “Chaos isn’t a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, they cling to the realm or the gods or love. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is.” - Littlefinger ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046/103 "2015-04-21T00:30:22Z")
Forgot to mention, I chuckled when Maester Mengele asked to keep the murdered dwarf’s head for his experiments. _Mwuhahaha_… ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046/104 "2015-04-21T00:35:23Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Forgot to mention, I chuckled when Maester Mengele asked to keep the murdered dwarf’s head for his experiments. _Mwuhahaha_… Maybe he needs parts for the Mountain. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Burden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/958977/32.png) [@Jack\_Burden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Burden)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046/105 "2015-04-21T02:18:35Z")
> [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](#): > > “Chaos isn’t a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, they cling to the realm or the gods or love. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is.” - Littlefinger Yeah man, that’s exactly the point I was making. Littlefinger is driving the action all along, pitting the Starks and Lannisters against each other for his personal benefit. Still his true motivations remain concealed despite this little speech. Is it about a power grab, his love of Catelyn, getting vengeance on past slights, or him just being an agent of chaos? The appeal of the character lies in nobody knowing what’s in his heart. “I warned you not to trust me!” ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046/106 "2015-04-21T02:45:06Z")
> [@Jack\_Burden](#): > > Still his true motivations remain concealed despite this little speech. Is it about a power grab, his love of Catelyn, getting vengeance on past slights, or him just being an agent of chaos? The appeal of the character lies in nobody knowing what’s in his heart. Is it really a mystery? It’s pretty clear to me that it’s any and all of these things. Littlefinger grew up resentful of his place in society and the privilege of the well-born, which denied him the things he wanted, including Catelyn. He’s in it for all these reasons, for revenge for the flights against him and the things denied him, to destroy their world and to grab as much as he can for himself. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046/107 "2015-04-21T03:08:37Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Of course at the same time, Robb could certainly have included a clause in his orders saying “note, it is ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL that you don’t pursue the enemy forces even if you think you can win a small victory, this is part of a larger plan, yada yada”, probably something that a more experienced general who was more familiar with his subordinates would have done. That carries its own risk - messages can be intercepted and there could be spies among Edmure’s command. There’s a better chance of executing a sneak attack if everyone only knows what they need to. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046/108 "2015-04-21T03:36:13Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Maybe he needs parts for the Mountain. Tinyhead Blaster from _Beyond Thunderdrome_? ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Burden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/958977/32.png) [@Jack\_Burden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Burden)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046/109 "2015-04-21T03:37:52Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Is it really a mystery? It’s pretty clear to me that it’s any and all of these things. > > Littlefinger grew up resentful of his place in society and the privilege of the well-born, which denied him the things he wanted, including Catelyn. > > He’s in it for all these reasons, for revenge for the flights against him and the things denied him, to destroy their world and to grab as much as he can for himself. Yes, I really do find something more inscrutable about Littlefinger and his end-game than “e) all of the above”, and that’s why I love his storyline. I have no idea where he’s going next. Neither does Sansa for that matter, but she’s figured out he’s her best option, The Seven help her. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046/110 "2015-04-21T03:40:33Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > That carries its own risk - messages can be intercepted and there could be spies among Edmure’s command. There’s a better chance of executing a sneak attack if everyone only knows what they need to. Some of the greatest generals in history - Robert E. Lee springs to mind - wrote very brief orders, trusting in their subordinates’ intelligence, discretion and initiative. (Sometimes, as at Gettysburg, it didn’t go quite as well as at other times). ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Burden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/958977/32.png) [@Jack\_Burden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Burden)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046/111 "2015-04-21T03:46:21Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Some of the greatest generals in history - Robert E. Lee springs to mind - wrote very brief orders, trusting in their subordinates’ intelligence, discretion and initiative. (Sometimes, as at Gettysburg, it didn’t go quite as well as at other times). If only Robb had Stonewall Jackson and J.E.B. Stuart under his command… ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046/112 "2015-04-21T04:04:12Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > You should see the delivery spout that rains boiling oil down on enemy ships as they pass underneath! I really wanna see a view up the Titan’s kilt, I’m guessing that yes he is anatomically correct for a variety of reasons. > [@AK84](#): > > Wonder why Kevan did not bring up the incest rumours? What would be the point? Either the rumours are pure slander, in which case he would just be insulting Cersei _and Tommen_, or they’re true in which case Stannis is the King instead of his grand-nephew. > [@SenorBeef](#): > > 3 or 4 episodes down the road, Brienne is going to run into Rickon in an inn, and offer her protection, and he’s going to say “uh, no thanks, I’ve got a pretty good gig here.” > > Poor Brienne. She’s going to pledge herself to the next noble person she sees… Well eventually her father is going to die and she’ll head back to the Sapphire Isle to rule (& promptly get her subjects killed). > [@Bricker](#): > > …And even if we agree that Robert was king by right of conquest, then his children are his heirs. Obviously we know that Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella are illegitimate, but we also know Robert has bastard children aplenty. I don’t know if the show has made clear what their legal status is with respect to rights to the throne. For that matter, how does one go about showing, now, that Tommen is illegitimate? Bastards have no right of inheritance. If Joffrey, Tommen, & Myrcella are taken out of consideration then Robert’s heir is his younger brother, Stannis, by Westerosi laws of primogeniture. Reny fell after Stannis & Shireen in the succession; he tried to claim the throne simply because he though he was more popular than Stannis. > [@StarvingButStrong](#): > > Actually, the whispers needn’t have been about incest. Isn’t a queen’s cheating on the king generally considered treason? And the kid’s NOT being the king’s get is the most important point. Adultery by a queen consort has been considered treason (for her and her lover) by essentially every hereditary monarchy that existed on Earth at some point (it still is in the UK); there’s no reason to believe Westeros is different (especially since it’s a expy for Medieval England). Cersei would both need to die if there affair were ever proven. And then there’s the logistical problem of deciding who get’s the good seats at her execution, who’s to be executioner, who get’s what souvenir, etc. > [@DigitalC](#): > > There isn’t any reason that aging would be a problem, this isn’t like Lost. We haven’t seem Rickon or Tommen because there’s been no reason to show them. Cersei basically defacto ruling for Tommen was the whole point of that small council meeting scene, having him around would be not only pointless but take away from that. Well Margery is still engaged to Tommen, who he’ll show up in relation to that. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Yeah, well they took the throne_s_ by force too, note, and only a few hundred years ago. And like I said- they dont seem to accept females sitting on the Iron Throne. I think it’s more a matter that the Targaryens always had a male heir available (eliminating the need for a female to step in) than a prohibition on a woman sitting on the Iron Throne. Daenerys is now the only living Targaryen dynast; therefore all the Targaryen loyalists are stuck with her, and also she has dragons. Speaking of; that scene was so sad, you could almost here her cry out “Come back Drogon, Mummy needs to lock you up with your brother & sister!”. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Burden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/958977/32.png) [@Jack\_Burden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Burden)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046/113 "2015-04-21T04:33:53Z")
I’m concerned for Dany - so far those responsible for beheadings (Ned, Joffrey, Robb) have gotten the same or worse in return. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046/114 "2015-04-21T04:47:49Z")
The real ironic thing not pointed out in show is that the father of the dead girl said the black dragon killed his daughter, so Dany locks up the other two who as far we know haven’t killed any kids while the kid killer still flies free! Dany basically accomplished nothing except turning her two better behaved dragons feral and angry at her, doh! Now she has three problem dragons! ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046/115 "2015-04-21T07:04:12Z")
I find it hilarious that Brienne managed to run into both Stark girls. The Force is strong with that one. ---
**Author:** ![Garula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ea666f/32.png) [@Garula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Garula)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046/116 "2015-04-21T09:36:35Z")
I have a question, are we supposed to have an idea how the murder genies fit into Braavosian society yet? When Jacqen gave Arya the coin he said that any man from Braavos would know what it means and help her, and that seems to be the truth. When the ship captain dude dropped her off at the murder clubhouse, it seemed more out of respect than fear. So, are we supposed to know anything beyond that? ---
**Author:** ![shantih](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f6c823/32.png) [@shantih](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shantih)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046/117 "2015-04-21T10:13:36Z")
> [@Jack\_Burden](#): > > I’m concerned for Dany - so far those responsible for beheadings (Ned, Joffrey, Robb) have gotten the same or worse in return. Yeaaaaah, I suppose, but lots and lots and _lots_ of people who _weren’t_ responsible for beheadings have gotten such or worse as well. I’d list them, but I have somewhere to be in a couple of hours, so … > [@grude](#): > > The real ironic thing not pointed out in show is that the father of the dead girl said the black dragon killed his daughter, so Dany locks up the other two who as far we know haven’t killed any kids while the kid killer still flies free! > > Dany basically accomplished nothing except turning her two better behaved dragons feral and angry at her, doh! Now she has three problem dragons! Drogon was the largest and strongest of the three; that he had upgraded his meals from mutton to long pork was a sign that the dragons were getting wilder and it was just a matter of time before the other two followed him into preying on people. Dany would have locked him up with the other two, but he had disappeared at that point. Maybe she should have spent more time with her chained dragons, but you could see her heart breaking when she walked away from them after chaining them up, and she’s had a pretty full plate since then. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046/118 "2015-04-21T10:17:01Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Bronn and Jaime road trip sounds fun. I’m glad Bronn isn’t out of the show, because I love the guy. I feel like his reaction to having the rug pulled out from under him on the Stokeworth marriage wasn’t devastating enough - yes, I know he’s bored of her already, but it’s a huge boon for him and it was just yanked away. And he just sort of said “Eh, oh well” to it. On rewatch, I remove the objection. The scene wasn’t long enough for him to show his displeasure, and his reaction is very “great, I’m a pawn of noble shits again” ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046/119 "2015-04-21T10:19:02Z")
Not feeling the love so far. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046/120 "2015-04-21T12:49:52Z")
> [@shantih](#): > > Drogon was the largest and strongest of the three; that he had upgraded his meals from mutton to long pork was a sign that the dragons were getting wilder and it was just a matter of time before the other two followed him into preying on people. Dany would have locked him up with the other two, but he had disappeared at that point. Maybe she should have spent more time with her chained dragons, but you could see her heart breaking when she walked away from them after chaining them up, and she’s had a pretty full plate since then. Did Drogon eat that guy’s daughter? I assumed she got burned accidentally. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-02-the-house-of-black-and-white-4-19-show-discussion/718046.md?page=7)