# Game of Thrones 5.04 "The Sons of the Harpy" 5/3/15 \[Show Discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 3, 2015, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174 "2015-05-03T20:32:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2015, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/181 "2015-05-08T15:40:25Z")
I miss the days of arguing over the thread rules. ---
**Author:** ![oft\_wears\_hats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7993a0/32.png) [@oft\_wears\_hats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oft_wears_hats)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2015, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/182 "2015-05-08T16:01:54Z")
> [@StarvingButStrong](#): > > I think Critical1 believes that Melisandre’s interest in Jon is because of his having royal blood – but he’s ascribing the source of that blood to a different dynasty than (I think) most fans are. You know, that’s a point. I’m aware of fan theories, but Melisandre seems to be pretty sure. What’s the basis of her certainty? Can she detect “kingly blood,” or does she just know something we don’t? Of course that brings up a whole new set of questions, like what makes a person have king’s blood, aside from the inheritance. Do they have to be recognized by others as a king? Could Melisandre have used Robb Stark for her funky magic once he declared himself the “King in the North?” ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2015, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/183 "2015-05-08T16:13:44Z")
Jon is Robb’s brother, he has kingly blood no matter what. ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2015, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/184 "2015-05-08T16:16:42Z")
> [@oft\_wears\_hats](#): > > You know, that’s a point. I’m aware of fan theories, but Melisandre seems to be pretty sure. What’s the basis of her certainty? Can she detect “kingly blood,” or does she just know something we don’t? > > Of course that brings up a whole new set of questions, like what makes a person have king’s blood, aside from the inheritance. Do they have to be recognized by others as a king? Could Melisandre have used Robb Stark for her funky magic once he declared himself the “King in the North?” Or maybe she just wanted to have sex with him, with the potential side benefit of discovering that he actually has king’s blood. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![oft\_wears\_hats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7993a0/32.png) [@oft\_wears\_hats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oft_wears_hats)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2015, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/185 "2015-05-08T16:44:35Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Jon is Robb’s brother, he has kingly blood no matter what. Are we sure about that? Robb proclaimed himself the “King in the North,” but Ned was just the Warden of the North, not a king. Was that enough? The North supported Robb’s claim, but he had yet to actually win the war. > [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](#): > > Or maybe she just wanted to have sex with him, with the potential side benefit of discovering that he actually has king’s blood. 😃 I wondered about that. Maybe she just thought it would be a fun way to test her theory about Jon’s parentage, and if she was lucky she’d get a shadow baby out of it. Still, she must have at least suspected he had king’s blood. It’s not like she’s always off screwing people left and right on the off chance that they turn out to be from a line of kings. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2015, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/186 "2015-05-08T16:53:43Z")
> [@oft\_wears\_hats](#): > > You know, that’s a point. I’m aware of fan theories, but Melisandre seems to be pretty sure. What’s the basis of her certainty? Can she detect “kingly blood,” or does she just know something we don’t? > > Of course that brings up a whole new set of questions, like what makes a person have king’s blood, aside from the inheritance. Do they have to be recognized by others as a king? Could Melisandre have used Robb Stark for her funky magic once he declared himself the “King in the North?” Melisandre knows things about Jon Snow, that is why she said “You know nothing, John Snow”. I think the Lord of Light is telling her that John Snow has a part to play in whatever will happen and they should get him on their side. Not sure if Ygritte was part of the plan or that was just Melisandre’s way of letting him know he has already broken his vow. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2015, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/187 "2015-05-08T17:01:34Z")
> [@oft\_wears\_hats](#): > > Are we sure about that? Robb proclaimed himself the “King in the North,” but Ned was just the Warden of the North, not a king. Was that enough? The North supported Robb’s claim, but he had yet to actually win the war. Except Robb didn’t proclaim himself king in the north, his bannermen did. I don’t think losing a war or not being recognized by the other king disqualifies him, his people accepted him as king so he was one. Hell, that ten year old girl ruling bear island still calls him the only king she’ll follow in her letter to Stannis. The only part i would question is whether “half brother to a king” is close enough to count. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2015, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/188 "2015-05-08T23:20:01Z")
> [@oft\_wears\_hats](#): > > Are we sure about that? Robb proclaimed himself the “King in the North,” but Ned was just the Warden of the North, not a king. Was that enough? The North supported Robb’s claim, but he had yet to actually win the war… The Starks have been Wardens of the North since the Targaryen Conquest; prior to that they Kings of the North for thousands of years. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2015, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/189 "2015-05-08T23:28:02Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > I don’t agree on either an ethical or pragmatic axis. > (1) Tommen may just be a moral person who doesn’t want to kill anyone > (2) The king having his guards basically start an open war with the country’s primary religion doesn’t seem like a great path to a lengthy and stable reign > (3) The fact that he’s just a teenager probably helps him out here, gives him some slack on the “oh, he was weak” scale. Of course he was weak, he’s a teenager. Him bowing to some pressure here is very different than if, say, Robert had done so. Yeah, but he did look weak there, which is what the story intended. I also agree that killing was probably the ham-handed response. What he could have done, summoning up as much dignity as he could, would be to say, “Then I will wait until he is finished praying.” Show basic respect for the religious authorities but make it clear that you expect them to answer for their actions. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2015, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/190 "2015-05-08T23:55:16Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Yeah, but he did look weak there, which is what the story intended. I also agree that killing was probably the ham-handed response. What he could have done, summoning up as much dignity as he could, would be to say, “Then I will wait until he is finished praying.” Show basic respect for the religious authorities but make it clear that you expect them to answer for their actions. Right, he could certainly have responded better. I just don’t think that that incident is suddenly and singlehandedly going to destroy his kingship now that everyone knows how totally weak he is, or anything of that sort. I think the way he did react was probably better than ordering his guards to cut a path through the sparrows. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2015, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/191 "2015-05-08T23:57:21Z")
Eh, maybe. I guess we’ll see. Since we’re discussing a story and not real life, I get the sinking feeling that he’s going to come to a bad end, because in a world as brutal and immoral as his world is, he can’t survive being that kind. ---
**Author:** ![River\_Hippie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/river_hippie/32/26_2.png) [@River\_Hippie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/River_Hippie)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2015, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/192 "2015-05-09T00:20:57Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Yeah, but he did look weak there, which is what the story intended. I also agree that killing was probably the ham-handed response. What he could have done, summoning up as much dignity as he could, would be to say, “Then I will wait until he is finished praying.” Show basic respect for the religious authorities but make it clear that you expect them to answer for their actions. **W** hat **W** ould **J** offery **D** o? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2015, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/193 "2015-05-09T00:21:17Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Yeah, but he did look weak there, which is what the story intended. I also agree that killing was probably the ham-handed response. What he could have done, summoning up as much dignity as he could, would be to say, “Then I will wait until he is finished praying.” Show basic respect for the religious authorities but make it clear that you expect them to answer for their actions. For Tommen to go to the High Septon was a sign of weakness. He should have summoned the High Septon to the castle, and questioned him from the Iron Throne. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2015, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/194 "2015-05-09T01:00:53Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > For Tommen to go to the High Septon was a sign of weakness. He should have summoned the High Septon to the castle, and questioned him from the Iron Throne. I don’t think we know enough about the power balance between church and state to say that. Maybe it’s 100% traditional for the king to go to the Septon, and to do otherwise would be a massive flouting of tradition. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2015, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/195 "2015-05-09T01:03:10Z")
If that were the case, the king should have had a flunky make sure that the High Septon was in and knew he was coming. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2015, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/196 "2015-05-09T01:05:39Z")
> [@oft\_wears\_hats](#): > > …Maybe she just thought it would be a fun way to test her theory about Jon’s parentage, and if she was lucky she’d get a shadow baby out of it… Which makes me wonder: How long does a SB need to gestate? Not too long, I think. She sent the first one against Renly, but Davos had to row her to the caves below (or near?) Renly’s camp before she “gave birth.” Maybe a SB can’t cross water? She was there at the Wall, hitting on Jon Snow, and now will be going along with Stannis to Winterfell. Maybe she can let a SB gestate for just a short time before sending it forth - as I suspect she would do against Roose Bolton at Winterfell. > [@adaher](#): > > Yeah, but he did look weak there, which is what the story intended. I also agree that killing was probably the ham-handed response. What he could have done, summoning up as much dignity as he could, would be to say, “Then I will wait until he is finished praying.” Show basic respect for the religious authorities but make it clear that you expect them to answer for their actions. That doesn’t always work well, either: [Road to Canossa - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walk_to_Canossa) > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > For Tommen to go to the High Septon was a sign of weakness. He should have summoned the High Septon to the castle, and questioned him from the Iron Throne. That’s what I was thinking. If the High Septon doesn’t come, you send a second, politely-worded but menacing letter implying, _Come in an hour or my soldiers will come and bring you to me._ ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2015, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/197 "2015-05-09T01:12:09Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > If that were the case, the king should have had a flunky make sure that the High Septon was in and knew he was coming. I’m not sure what point you’re making. I agree that Tommen’s actions were rash and somewhat foolish. After all, he’s both (a) brand new to kingship and (b) a teenager madly trying to please his super-hot wife so they can continue to have lots of sex. What I do NOT agree with is this: “Tommen basically just lost any authority or legitimacy he had as king and this is probably the start of coup attempts.”, which I think is a massive overstatement. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2015, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/198 "2015-05-09T01:16:32Z")
My point is that Tommen showed weakness. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2015, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/199 "2015-05-09T01:19:01Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > For Tommen to go to the High Septon was a sign of weakness. He should have summoned the High Septon to the castle, and questioned him from the Iron Throne. High Sparrow, the high Septon was the dude they found with the prostitutes then had march naked through the streets. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2015, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/200 "2015-05-09T01:40:11Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > High Sparrow, the high Septon was the dude they found with the prostitutes then had march naked through the streets. “High Sparrow” is just a nick name for this particular cleric, the official title is High Septon, and he no longer has a personal name. Septons, septas & maesters renounce their surnames (assuming they had one to begin with), but the High Septon renounces his given name too when he takes office. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174.md?page=11)