# Game of Thrones 5.04 "The Sons of the Harpy" 5/3/15 \[Show Discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 3, 2015, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174 "2015-05-03T20:32:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2015, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/201 "2015-05-09T01:51:19Z")
I believe the High Sparrow (played by Jonathan Pryce) was promoted (by Cersei) to High Septon when the previous High Septon was marched naked down the street, after being found with prostitutes. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2015, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/202 "2015-05-09T03:14:57Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > “High Sparrow” is just a nick name for this particular cleric, the official title is High Septon, and he no longer has a personal name. Septons, septas & maesters renounce their surnames (assuming they had one to begin with), but the High Septon renounces his given name too when he takes office. Who said that? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2015, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/203 "2015-05-09T09:49:44Z")
About the visit to the high Septon : I think the show wants indeed to make the point that Tommen is displayng weakness (as if it weren’t obvious enough, being played by his spouse and mom), but that from an objective point of view, his attitude isn’t partcularly surprising. Let’s assume for something equivalent that a former king of England decides to visit the new arshbishop of Canterbury (that he himself appointed) : not very surprising, especially if they happen to be in the same city. It honours the archbishop, shows respect for the church, and going to the cathedral is something a king would be expected to do once in a while, anyway. And there’s no particular reason to threaten him in advance with being brought in by soldiers if he doesn’t cooperate, because there’s no reason to assume in the first place that the arshbishop will refuse to receive the king. That’s going to be a complete surprise. And facing this unexpected situation, armed fanatics and an angry mob, it certainly makes sense to back off and think about what the next step should be. An intelligent king would have done the same, even if strong. Only a murderous fool like Joffrey would have shouted “kill them all and bring me the septon forcefully”. Again, I don’t think it’s what the show wants to convey, but I find nothing abnormal in Tommen’s attitude. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2015, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/204 "2015-05-09T10:44:01Z")
The result wasn’t the problem, it was how he looked getting there. He failed to maintain his dignity, instead he looked a little confused and flustered. He’s in WAY over his head, which is understandable given his age, and he should have had either Tywin or Tyrion helping him out. Except Tyrion killed Tywin, and the other intelligent advisors, Baelish and Varys, are also not at King’s Landing. There’s no one competent to help him rule in these early days of his reign. What I don’t get is Cersei’s behavior. I know she hates his new queen, but geez, by putting him in that kind of position you risk his reign. She obviously loves her children deeply, but keeping Tommen alive and well seems more important than making his wife’s life miserable. Seems like her dark nature always wins when there’s a conflict. She failed to be helpful to Joffrey either. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2015, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/205 "2015-05-09T11:57:10Z")
It’s more than just attacking Margaery. Tywin was the source of Lannister power. Without him, her position is shakey. She lacks allies and authority. She’s trying to forge new power through diminishing the small council and filling it with people who will follow her, but she thought she would benefit from the standing and manueverings of the militant wing of the church. If she didn’t have the power to keep them away as Tywin did, well, she can try to co-opt them and point them towards her enemies. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2015, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/206 "2015-05-09T15:41:22Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > What I don’t get is Cersei’s behavior. I know she hates his new queen, but geez, by putting him in that kind of position you risk his reign. She obviously loves her children deeply, but keeping Tommen alive and well seems more important than making his wife’s life miserable. Seems like her dark nature always wins when there’s a conflict. She failed to be helpful to Joffrey either. I think she thinks she’s being a master manipulator, practicing what she learned from her father, but as Tyrion said, she’s not nearly as smart as she thinks she is. The irony is, if she really wanted Tommen to be happy and successful, the best thing she could do is just go away entire and let Margaery guide and mold him, because Margaery has every incentive to make his reign long and successful. But Cersei could never come to a realization like that, she’s too jealous. ---
**Author:** ![oft\_wears\_hats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7993a0/32.png) [@oft\_wears\_hats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oft_wears_hats)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2015, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/207 "2015-05-09T16:34:51Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > The Starks have been Wardens of the North since the Targaryen Conquest; prior to that they Kings of the North for thousands of years. Ah, I didn’t realize that. Thanks! So Melisandre’s interest in Jon Snow may be based on his ostensible Stark lineage, rather than something less obvious. > [@SenorBeef](#): > > It’s more than just attacking Margaery. Tywin was the source of Lannister power. Without him, her position is shakey. She lacks allies and authority. She’s trying to forge new power through diminishing the small council and filling it with people who will follow her, but she thought she would benefit from the standing and manueverings of the militant wing of the church. If she didn’t have the power to keep them away as Tywin did, well, she can try to co-opt them and point them towards her enemies. If Cersei thinks the High Sparrow is going to follow her now that he has his army, she’s a fool. Everything about the Sparrows just screams “we are zealots who answer only to the most fanatical interpretation of our religion.” She’s definitely bitten off more than she can chew, and now that they don’t really need anything from her, they don’t have much reason to work with her anymore. > [@MaxTheVool](#): > > I think she thinks she’s being a master manipulator, practicing what she learned from her father, but as Tyrion said, she’s not nearly as smart as she thinks she is. > > The irony is, if she really wanted Tommen to be happy and successful, the best thing she could do is just go away entire and let Margaery guide and mold him, because Margaery has every incentive to make his reign long and successful. But Cersei could never come to a realization like that, she’s too jealous. Yeah. Cersei is a schemer, but she’s never had the foresight or planning of Tywin. She’s reasonably clever with some of her schemes, but she tend to pursue petty (or at least short term) goals. “I don’t care if Margaery will take good care of Tommen, he’s **my** son, dammit!” “I don’t care if empowering an army of religious zealots and removing all possible oversight could come back to bite me later, I’m going to do it anyway if it lets me get a few pokes in at Margaery; I hate that bitch.” Tywin was all about creating a family legacy (so much so that he really didn’t even give a shit about his own children). Cersei is all about making sure her needs are met. On the other hand, I think it was stupid of Margaery to antagonize Cersei like she did, calling her “Dowager Queen” and “Queen Grandmother,” and implying that she was an alcoholic. Margaery won, she didn’t need to kick Cersei while she was down. Olenna would have known there was nothing to be gained by being petty like that. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2015, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/208 "2015-05-09T19:46:12Z")
Both Tommen and Margaery, in their own ways, are showing the flaws of youth and inexperience. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2015, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/209 "2015-05-09T21:30:35Z")
> [@oft\_wears\_hats](#): > > On the other hand, I think it was stupid of Margaery to antagonize Cersei like she did, calling her “Dowager Queen” and “Queen Grandmother,” and implying that she was an alcoholic. Margaery won, she didn’t need to kick Cersei while she was down. Olenna would have known there was nothing to be gained by being petty like that. It’s possible that she’s playing a deeper game and deliberately trying to cause a rift that she thinks she’ll end up on top of, or something along those lines. Or else she’s just an overconfident teenager. Or a little from column A, a little from column B. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2015, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/210 "2015-05-10T04:33:17Z")
Kudos if that’s an _Archer_ reference. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2015, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/211 "2015-05-10T13:46:30Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > You’re hung up on the word “science.” Use another word, any word, to explain what you want them to show and how. What do they understand the idea of “The blood runs true” to mean. > [@](#): > > Better yet, write the scene you wanted to see and explain how it makes the show better. I have no particular scene in mind. The information would have made the thread with ned make more sense, and it would be clearer whether the book itself is incriminating. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@Charlie\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2015, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/212 "2015-05-10T14:45:42Z")
Forgive me if I am mistaken, but isn’t episode S05E05 due to be broadcast tonight? If so, shouldn’t someone start a thread to discuss this epi? I’m looking forward to this epi more than most. I’m thinking Brianna is likely going to do something that will be very entertaining. In addition Tyrion meeting up with Dani should prove to be very entertaining as well. As for the rest of the show, I must admit that so many characters just come and go so very quickly that it’s difficult to keep track of all the characters. I would like to say one thing though. Sam’s speech about Jon to the Knights was quite possibly one of the very best moments of this show. In fact, it may have been the very best moment. If someone thinks it’s approrpriate, I’d love to see someone start a thread asking people to post what they thought was the single most entertaining moment of this show. My vote would go to that marvelous speech that Sam made. What do you think? ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@Charlie\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2015, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/213 "2015-05-10T14:51:00Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > It’s possible that she’s playing a deeper game and deliberately trying to cause a rift that she thinks she’ll end up on top of, or something along those lines. > > Or else she’s just an overconfident teenager. > > Or a little from column A, a little from column B. I would think that Cersei hates being laughed at more than just about anything and the look on her face as she walked away from Margy and her 4 friends (or maybe her entourage?) was very telling. I think the laughter she heard as she walked away was quite possibly one of the very most hurtful incidents that poor Cersei (the horrible bitch) had ever experienced. Unfortunately, she was bound to take that hurt out on someone and it looks like she took it out on that chief sparrow (or whatever his title was). Poor Cersei. She was just kind of cursed from the moment she was born and doomed to live a most unhappy life. Poor girl. Too bad they don’t have any form of therapy in Westeros. Cersei could really use some serious therapy. Don’t you think? ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@Charlie\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2015, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/214 "2015-05-10T14:54:25Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Both Tommen and Margaery, in their own ways, are showing the flaws of youth and inexperience. Very true. But there must be a way that Tommy could find someone who would tutor him or teach him how to be a king. He clearly needs a lot of help and no one seems to be helping him. Who would be the person who would be best able to help him become a strong and respected King? And what would they suggest he do about Cersei? He likely must get rid of her somehow. But where would he send her? And would he send her there dead or allive? ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2015, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/215 "2015-05-10T15:05:09Z")
> [@Charlie\_Wayne](#): > > Very true. But there must be a way that Tommy could find someone who would tutor him or teach him how to be a king. He clearly needs a lot of help and no one seems to be helping him. > > Who would be the person who would be best able to help him become a strong and respected King? And what would they suggest he do about Cersei? He likely must get rid of her somehow. But where would he send her? And would he send her there dead or allive? That guy got shot in the shitter. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2015, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/216 "2015-05-10T17:25:17Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > That guy got shot in the shitter. Alas, yes. His brother, Kevan, might be the next-best advisor. But he’s not in Cersei’s good graces either. ---
**Author:** ![oft\_wears\_hats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7993a0/32.png) [@oft\_wears\_hats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oft_wears_hats)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2015, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/217 "2015-05-10T17:56:01Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Kudos if that’s an _Archer_ reference. Pretty sure it’s The Simpsons, if you’re talking about the “Column A/Column B” thing. > [@Charlie\_Wayne](#): > > If someone thinks it’s approrpriate, I’d love to see someone start a thread asking people to post what they thought was the single most entertaining moment of this show. My vote would go to that marvelous speech that Sam made. What do you think? My vote: [QUOTE=Tyrion Lannister] Those are brave men knocking at our door. Let’s go kill them! [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2015, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/218 "2015-05-10T20:02:13Z")
> [@Charlie\_Wayne](#): > > …If someone thinks it’s approrpriate, I’d love to see someone start a thread asking people to post what they thought was the single most entertaining moment of this show… As to this or any other episode, here you go: [Favorite HBO Game of Thrones moments - Cafe Society - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=756602) > [@oft\_wears\_hats](#): > > Pretty sure it’s The Simpsons, if you’re talking about the “Column A/Column B” thing… Thanks. I don’t remember it on _The Simpsons_, but it has been used a few times on _Archer_. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2015, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/219 "2015-05-10T21:00:39Z")
[5.05 thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=18354677) ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2015, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/220 "2015-05-10T21:08:06Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Alas, yes. His brother, Kevan, might be the next-best advisor. But he’s not in Cersei’s good graces either. I’ve love to see Tommen fire off a raven to Casterly Rock against Cersei’s asking Great-Uncle Kevan to serve has his Master of War or even Hand of the King. Kevan would gladly accept either office. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174.md?page=10)