# Game of Thrones 5.04 "The Sons of the Harpy" 5/3/15 \[Show Discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 3, 2015, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174 "2015-05-03T20:32:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![The\_Evil\_Prince\_Zorte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@The\_Evil\_Prince\_Zorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Evil_Prince_Zorte)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/41 "2015-05-04T15:46:52Z")
The Unsullied are great at fighting in formation on the open field. Spears and shields suck for fighting close up in a hallway. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/42 "2015-05-04T15:55:34Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Why did the unsullied not do a great job of fighting? Maybe they were some of the not-fully-trained unsullied that Dany insisted on rescuing along with all the fully-trained ones. They send out Grey Worm, the leader of all Unsullied, with nothing but trainees? ---
**Author:** ![oft\_wears\_hats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7993a0/32.png) [@oft\_wears\_hats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oft_wears_hats)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/43 "2015-05-04T16:27:57Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Meryn Trant has always been in her pocket, there was no other reason to send him. Ah yes. I didn’t put that together before, but that makes perfect sense. She’s systematically going after everyone close to Margaery. She manipulated the Sparrows into imprisoning Loras, driving a wedge between Tommen and Margaery, and now she’s effectively holding Mace hostage. But the witch pretty explicitly said that someone younger would cast her down and take all she held dear. Assuming that Margaery was indeed the person referred to in the prediction, I think she is still going to come out on top. Of course, it looks like Cersei is still going to cause a lot of collateral damage even if she’s doomed to be outmaneuvered by Margaery. ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/44 "2015-05-04T16:35:35Z")
> [@The\_Evil\_Prince\_Zorte](#): > > The Unsullied are great at fighting in formation on the open field. Spears and shields suck for fighting close up in a hallway. Except when you have plenty of time and space to form the phalanx formation you’re trained for. Two guys pointed one direction-two guys pointed the other direction you pretty much have the hallway covered. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/45 "2015-05-04T16:44:39Z")
> [@oft\_wears\_hats](#): > > Ah yes. I didn’t put that together before, but that makes perfect sense. She’s systematically going after everyone close to Margaery. She manipulated the Sparrows into imprisoning Loras, driving a wedge between Tommen and Margaery, and now she’s effectively holding Mace hostage. > > But the witch pretty explicitly said that someone younger would cast her down and take all she held dear. Assuming that Margaery was indeed the person referred to in the prediction, I think she is still going to come out on top. Of course, it looks like Cersei is still going to cause a lot of collateral damage even if she’s doomed to be outmaneuvered by Margaery. Cersei assumes it is Margaery, i think we are supposed to assume it is Daenerys. ---
**Author:** ![oft\_wears\_hats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7993a0/32.png) [@oft\_wears\_hats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oft_wears_hats)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/46 "2015-05-04T17:00:13Z")
Ahhhhh. That does make sense. I thought it would be pretty contrived if it ended up being some new character instead of Margaery, but Daenerys is appropriate, and it’s not like she’s coming out of nowhere. It also fits nicely into the idea that Cersei is doubly doomed to her fate because she’s moving against the wrong person in her haste. I thought Cersei’s final tragedy would be in failing to fend off Margaery, but it’s even more tragic if she succeeds in beating Margaery only to fall to Daenerys. Ouch. Not that she doesn’t deserve it. She’s a monster. But watching her slow fall over the last few seasons has still been oddly painful. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/47 "2015-05-04T18:01:35Z")
That establishing shot of Dany looking down on the city - whew! I hope they have some Wall-style elevators. Getting that far down to street level, and then back up again, would be quite a hike. Jaime and Bronn’s talk on the ship was good. You could tell Bronn was biting his tongue not to say anything about the twincest rumors. And nice to see Jaime putting his metal hand to good use in the fight in the dunes! Also a nice moment earlier, when Jaime saw Tarth - you know he was thinking of Brienne. I thought the Sand Spiders killed the merchant captain so that he couldn’t tell anyone _else_ that Jaime and Bronn were in Dorne. Knowledge is power. Good scene with Littlefinger and Sansa down in the Winterfell catacombs. He won’t be pleased, upon arriving in King’s Landing, to find his brothel(s) have been shut down by the Faith Militant. Nice hearing from Ser Barristan about Rhaegar’s love of singing. I was disappointed in the Unsullied soldiers’ fighting skills, too. Hope Grey Worm and Barristan recover. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/48 "2015-05-04T18:09:42Z")
> [@The\_Evil\_Prince\_Zorte](#): > > The Unsullied are great at fighting in formation on the open field. Spears and shields suck for fighting close up in a hallway. I get the impression that you don’t have to buy an unsullied army - you could buy a few unsullied to be your personal guard if you’re a rich guy. And so you would expect them to be trained in things other than phalanx formation combat. And when Missandei is rattling off about their training, she says IIRC “they’re trained in the 3 spears, and the shortsword” The show should be consistent about this. The premise about the unsullied is that they’re basically near-perfect fighters, almost superhuman, but that’s not what we saw. They could’ve set up a situation that actually was plausible for supersoldiers to be ambushed effectively - like perhaps something similar to the Red Wedding where they were lured into a situation in which crossbowmen could fire at them from above. Or perhaps just have 2-3 Unsullied ambushed by 20+ men. We actually did see that, in the cuts of the main fight, when two unsullied were attacked in an open area simultaneously with the main fight. > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Mace Tyrell didn’t seem like very much of a player. He was much too willing to go to Braavos for Cersei. He’s been consistently shown as a dimwit, definitely not a game player, and the women are the schemers of House Tyrell. He’s ever so happy to be given token signs of respect as a great man of power that he’ll joyfully play a small role on the small council and be happy about it. It’s kind of sweet, in a way, in contrast to all of the evil bastards and schemers. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/49 "2015-05-04T18:30:28Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > They could’ve set up a situation that actually was plausible for supersoldiers to be ambushed effectively - like perhaps something similar to the Red Wedding where they were lured into a situation in which crossbowmen could fire at them from above. Or perhaps just have 2-3 Unsullied ambushed by 20+ men. We actually did see that, in the cuts of the main fight, when two unsullied were attacked in an open area simultaneously with the main fight. That would have been a slaughter though, the point of scene was to end with the cliffhanger of whether Obama and McCain made it or not. It had to end in a tie basically so the sons of the harpy did not have a chance to finish them off. The unsullied were outnumbered about three to one, the problem was that they mostly got their ass kicked while Grey Worm kicked mayor ass by himself. It would have been more realistic if they all fought reasonably well and still lost to superior numbers and being completely surrounded, they just chose to let the named character shine instead. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/50 "2015-05-04T18:35:13Z")
> [@The\_Evil\_Prince\_Zorte](#): > > The Unsullied are great at fighting in formation on the open field. Spears and shields suck for fighting close up in a hallway. Well, not exactly . But when you’re taken from two/three sides and by surprise- yes, they suck. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/51 "2015-05-04T18:35:49Z")
You’re right, but I wish they’d have taken more care to show the unsullied fighting prowess. The show has shown their dedication, certainly, but aside from Grey Worm’s fighting skills (and they’ve given Daario and Jorah equally potent fighting skills as important characters) they’ve never really shown the Unsullied to be the almost superhuman fighters they’re cracked up to be. Basically, they should all be what they show Grey Worm to actually be. If they’re running around as red shirts it undermines their premise. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/52 "2015-05-04T18:40:35Z")
I wonder if that was supposed to be all of the Sons of the Harpy? ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/53 "2015-05-04T19:17:14Z")
I suspect that Cersei already knows that Littlefinger has Sansa, and that he knows that she knows. Work travels quickly in Westeros. Being the sharpest of the bunch, I wonder what Littlefinger will do to address the strong possibility that he will be detained (at best) once entering King’s Landing (if he goes there at all). At first, I thought that he was just saying that he’s headed for King’s Landing, but really getting the hell out of Dodge before Stannis’s army comes rumbling in. ---
**Author:** ![Wile\_E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c37758/32.png) [@Wile\_E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wile_E)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/54 "2015-05-04T20:54:09Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > That establishing shot of Dany looking down on the city - whew! I hope they have some Wall-style elevators. Getting that far down to street level, and then back up again, would be quite a hike. > > … I vote for a big slide, like what they used to remove the statue only with less crashing and smashing to bits. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/55 "2015-05-04T21:20:09Z")
> [@oft\_wears\_hats](#): > > Shit, Not Grey Worm and Ser Barristan! I really, really liked those guys. It’s possible that Grey Worm will survive, but it looked like Barristan was definitely dead. … Grey Worm is fine. You can tell because he had no _Moment of Calm/Pleasant/Warm Interaction_ scene in that episode. ---
**Author:** ![River\_Hippie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/river_hippie/32/26_2.png) [@River\_Hippie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/River_Hippie)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/56 "2015-05-04T21:20:18Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > …Good scene with Littlefinger and Sansa down in the Winterfell catacombs… I kept thinking that was a terrible place to have a private and important conversation. So many dark corners down there in the tombs, anyone could have been hiding and overhearing. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/57 "2015-05-04T23:19:57Z")
The Sand Snakes killed the captain because he wanted to be paid for information. So instead of paying him, they kidnapped him and tortured him into telling him the information. Once they had the information he was of no use. They probably expected the scorpions to kill him and got impatient when they did not. It will be interesting to see how Littlefinger reacts to the Sparrows attacking his brothels. I think Cersei still trusts him, I wonder what her plan for him is and vice versa, I think Margery went to get the Queen of Hearts back from Highgarden I bet she is not going to sit still while is Loras in jail. Did Cersei do all this just to show Margery she still has power, or is there more to her scheme? Maybe have the old man killed in Braavos and assasinate the old lady when she comes to collect Loras? It is good to have Jorah back, with Barristan Selmy gone there is a spot open on the Queensguard. ---
**Author:** ![River\_Hippie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/river_hippie/32/26_2.png) [@River\_Hippie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/River_Hippie)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/58 "2015-05-05T02:48:50Z")
> [@River\_Hippie](#): > > I kept thinking that was a terrible place to have a private and important conversation. So many dark corners down there in the tombs, anyone could have been hiding and overhearing. And who knows what the acoustics are there? Maybe it’s all dead and voices don’t carry at all. Maybe they reverberate and carry for long distances. Someone like Littlefinger, who depends on overheard conversations should know to take something like this to the windswept plains or somewhere no one would be able to overhear. ---
**Author:** ![LawMonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@LawMonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LawMonkey)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/59 "2015-05-05T03:32:07Z")
A bit late here, but I have to admit I feel like we’re just spinning wheels so far this season. I don’t mind it too much; I’m usually more interested in characters than I am in plot, and we’ve spent plenty of time with our characters so far. But I haven’t felt like we’ve really taken many steps forward so far, perhaps because I’m having a harder time seeing where we’re going from here. I’m fairly content, but I can understand how someone earlier in the thread felt that the four leaked episodes didn’t really take us anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/60 "2015-05-05T03:33:46Z")
> [@Sir\_Prize](#): > > …Everyone is predicting that Cersei’s games with religion will come back an bite her. And I don’t disagree. But I think sending what’s his face to talk to the Iron Bank will also be a big blunder. It almost seemed that she did not intend for hime to make it there when she assigned him a guard but I think the guard’s duty may be to make sure he goes straight to the bank without consulting Diana Rigg. Cersei’s playing with fire without realizing it. I really hope we get to see Olenna again. > [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > _This_ is what happens when you don’t have A Hand. Tommen going personally to talk to the High Sparrow? You summon the High Sparrow…and if he doesn’t show, you send \*\*\*\*ing troops to get him. And those peasants with garden trowels aren’t going to stop anyone. Yeah, that Tommen got the whole thing ass backwards. > [@Oakminster](#): > > Absolutely. Tommen looked impotent when he came slinking back with his tail between his legs. And he may as well be, because it doesn’t look like he’ll be getting laid by his wife again anytime soon… Agreed, until Loras is free Tommen is just going to have to rely on the Hand of the King. > [@SenorBeef](#): > > …He’s been consistently shown as a dimwit, definitely not a game player, and the women are the schemers of House Tyrell. He’s ever so happy to be given token signs of respect as a great man of power that he’ll joyfully play a small role on the small council and be happy about it. It’s kind of sweet, in a way, in contrast to all of the evil bastards and schemers. Tyrell men are just for show & breeding purposes; the women run everything from behind the scene. This is perfectly illustrated by how he came up to Tywin & Olenna, and his mother shooed him away like a child without a 2nd thought. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174.md?page=4)