# Game of Thrones 5.04 "The Sons of the Harpy" 5/3/15 \[Show Discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 3, 2015, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174 "2015-05-03T20:32:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Smid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/838e76/32.png) [@Smid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smid)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/101 "2015-05-06T07:04:04Z")
> [@Turek](#): > > King of the Castle, Master of his Domain… > > 😃 We’re back to the Hand of the king again? ---
**Author:** ![Smid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/838e76/32.png) [@Smid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smid)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/102 "2015-05-06T07:10:39Z")
> [@SecretaryofEvil](#): > > The Night’s Watch does seem to be pretty pragmatically lenient on the “No Fucking,” policy though. As Sam keeps pointing out, its not a no fucking policy, its a no marrying policy. “Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night’s Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.” Ok, well technically father no children could be down to contraception or, in the case of westeros, not be father due to being unmarried, and thus have bastards… ---
**Author:** ![Smid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/838e76/32.png) [@Smid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smid)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/103 "2015-05-06T07:15:10Z")
> [@Push\_You\_Down](#): > > I like the Rhaegar/Lyanna parentage theory myself, but such a big deal is made of Robert’s kids having dark hair (like Jon’s) and the Targaryen(sp)'s all having white-blonde hair…it seems a longshot. Actually, the big deal with the hair was actually about the Baratheon line having dark hair in its lineage and the Lannisters having blonde. This is Targaryen lineage. Baratheons are actually related by marriage to a targ woman. And who is to say that the stark women’s genes are stronger, and dark dominates the hair… ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/104 "2015-05-06T07:23:45Z")
> [@Smid](#): > > Actually, the big deal with the hair was actually about the Baratheon line having dark hair in its lineage and the Lannisters having blonde. > > This is Targaryen lineage. Baratheons are actually related by marriage to a targ woman. > > And who is to say that the stark women’s genes are stronger, and dark dominates the hair… Right; we can speculate since either genetics doesn’t work the same in Westeros as Earth, or people like Ned Stark jumped to conclusions. However I still think it very unlikely that RR would write it that way: that the targaryens’ most distinctive visual feature can be overidden so completely, and that ned could essentially live a lie for all of jon’s life (also, what about ned and robert’s conversation about who was the mother of _his_ bastard?). ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/105 "2015-05-06T08:49:11Z")
> [@JSexton](#): > > The entry he liked was about Jaime wanting to die in the arms of the woman he loves. Which is Cersei. Which is the act that got Bran tossed from a tower in season 1. Seems more of a dislike than a like, but I’m fairly sure that’s all there is to it. Pretty sure that the “dying” is the part he likes. ---
**Author:** ![Smid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/838e76/32.png) [@Smid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smid)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/106 "2015-05-06T08:49:17Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Right; we can speculate since either genetics doesn’t work the same in Westeros as Earth, or people like Ned Stark jumped to conclusions. Ned stark read a book on the lineage of Baratheons. It said that their children had dark hair. **All of them**. These children were of the Targaryen lineage. From the female side. So dark hair won over blonde hair when a Baratheon married a Targ. Being related to a Targ was the reason why the Baratheon’s had a claim to the throne. Thus there is no reason to think that that light overwhelms dark. None. > [@](#): > > However I still think it very unlikely that RR would write it that way: that the targaryens’ most distinctive visual feature can be overidden so completely, and that ned could essentially live a lie for all of jon’s life (also, what about ned and robert’s conversation about who was the mother of _his_ bastard?). Because that logic has already been proven to be wrong? Because the targaryens most distinctive visual feature has already been overridden? And would Ned live a lie for most of his life for say, to protect his sisters son? Or father a bastard? ---
**Author:** ![Smid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/838e76/32.png) [@Smid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smid)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/107 "2015-05-06T08:52:47Z")
Facebook thread is up, unless I missed mention of it: [If game of thrones took place entirely on facebook - Season 5 episode 4](http://valarbloghulis.someecards.com/got-recap-season-5/if-game-of-thrones-took-place-entirely-on-facebook-season-5-episode-4/) ---
**Author:** ![Smid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/838e76/32.png) [@Smid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smid)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/108 "2015-05-06T10:16:14Z")
> [@Gothic](#): > > I do not see how Cersei knows where Sansa Stark is. Sansa played a part in murdering her son and I do not see Cersei caring if it was willing or not. I think Boltin has a tight lid on the Ravens. > How does Peter know Stannis is at the wall? Does Boltin know where Stannis is? She was seen in plain view in an inn. With Brienne saying “You are Sansa Stark”. They are making no effort to hide her. Surely there will be others who are friends with the Lannisters in Winterfell? Perhaps even the Freys? With Tyrion, he was hidden. Sansa isn’t. I can imagine Littlefinger knows a lot. He has spys everywhere. I wouldn’t be surprised if he had them on the wall. And had them in Bolton castle. And everywhere in between. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/109 "2015-05-06T10:40:35Z")
> [@Smid](#): > > Ned stark read a book on the lineage of Baratheons. It said that their children had dark hair. **All of them**. And? Even if two parents both had dark hair and all their children had dark hair, it’s conceivable that they could have a light-haired child as both of them could be carrying a recessive gene. Looking along a family history, you’re getting a new set of genes added each generation, so there’s little to be concluded from “His grandfather had dark hair, and his father had dark hair”. So what? > [@](#): > > And would Ned live a lie for most of his life for say, to protect his sisters son? Or father a bastard? Yeah but trying to hide that a child has a Targ parent doesn’t mean you have to therefore say he is your child, especially bearing in mind that specific lie would cause some much heartache to his wife. And still you haven’t said why Robert thought Ned had fathered that child by a specific woman. ---
**Author:** ![Smid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/838e76/32.png) [@Smid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smid)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/110 "2015-05-06T11:00:29Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Yeah but trying to hide that a child has a Targ parent doesn’t mean you have to therefore say he is your child, especially bearing in mind that specific lie would cause some much heartache to his wife. Ned was not married when he took the child home. His marriage to Cat happened afterwards. Cat was supposed to marry his older brother, who the mad king burned. > [@](#): > > And still you haven’t said why Robert thought Ned had fathered that child by a specific woman. If you notice, Ned never confirms it. Robert speculates on whoever the mother is supposed to be. Rumours. Fit the role. Ned has a child brought home. Ned didn’t say it was a ward “to give it that level of protection”, because it would have to be someone who could confirm or deny it. As for the logic that Robert had the child. Robert had 20 odd bastards around the place. One to Lyanna? Would that make much difference? Enough to hide? From who? It strikes you from the series that Robert is in love with Lyanna, not the other way around, so it didn’t even sound as if they’d likely have slept together. She knew her own mind… ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@Charlie\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/111 "2015-05-06T11:01:24Z")
> [@Sir\_Prize](#): > > I wish we had a scene with Varys’ reaction to Tyrion’s disappearance. > > Why did the Sand Snakes kill the captain who brought them valuable information? Are they all just psycho? > > Melisandra’s seduction was unconvincing. I don’t mind nudity but I get annoyed if it makes the scene feel like a joke. Is she supposed to have super sex powers? I thought she told Stannis’ wife that she didn’t. > > Prediction based on Jamie and Bronn’s campfire discussion: Jamie and Cersei are going to die in the same scene. It will not be a happy ending. > > Everyone is predicting that Cersei’s games with religion will come back an bite her. And I don’t disagree. But I think sending what’s his face to talk to the Iron Bank will also be a big blunder. It almost seemed that she did not intend for hime to make it there when she assigned him a guard but I think the guard’s duty may be to make sure he goes straight to the bank without consulting Diana Rigg. I’m not sure it was ever made clear just how that captain came into contact with those psychos. He may have voluntarily brought them some info or they may have captured him and tortured him into giving up the info. In either case, they sure don’t treat their guests very hospitably. As far as Daenerys goes, I would have been happy if she had been swallowed by a black hole and was never heard from again sometime back in Season 2. I now just hit Fast-Forward every time she appears on the screen. Talk about a bore fest! ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/112 "2015-05-06T11:03:52Z")
Jezus, that witchy temptress had me all ways up. I cannot conceive of being of flesh and blood and not nailing her to that table. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@Charlie\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/113 "2015-05-06T11:04:19Z")
> [@Smid](#): > > Ned was not married when he took the child home. His marriage to Cat happened afterwards. > > Cat was supposed to marry his older brother, who the mad king burned. > > If you notice, Ned never confirms it. Robert speculates on whoever the mother is supposed to be. Rumours. Fit the role. Ned has a child brought home. > > Ned didn’t say it was a ward “to give it that level of protection”, because it would have to be someone who could confirm or deny it. > > As for the logic that Robert had the child. Robert had 20 odd bastards around the place. One to Lyanna? Would that make much difference? Enough to hide? From who? It strikes you from the series that Robert is in love with Lyanna, not the other way around, so it didn’t even sound as if they’d likely have slept together. She knew her own mind… Characters just come and go so quickly, it’s impossible to stay invested in many for very long. If John Snow’s mother is still alive, she’d likely be senile by now. I think you can forget about her. As a matter of fact, I’m coming to the conclusion that I’m just going to bale on this entire shitty show. So much talk and so much scenery. But it’s just not worth the effort any longer. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/114 "2015-05-06T11:40:34Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > And? Even if two parents both had dark hair and all their children had dark hair, it’s conceivable that they could have a light-haired child as both of them could be carrying a recessive gene. I assumed genetics doesn’t work exactly like it does in real life, or that there’s something like “magic genes.” > [@Smid](#): > > Cat was supposed to marry his older brother, who the mad king burned. If I recall correctly, Brandon Stark was killed, Ned and Catelyn were married, Catelyn was pregnant with Robb, and then Ned went off to war and came back with Jon. I’m guessing that Robb and Jon were nearly the same age. ---
**Author:** ![Smid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/838e76/32.png) [@Smid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smid)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/115 "2015-05-06T11:47:32Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > If I recall correctly, Brandon Stark was killed, Ned and Catelyn were married, Catelyn was pregnant with Robb, and then Ned went off to war and came back with Jon. I’m guessing that Robb and Jon were nearly the same age. I thought it was Brandon Stark got killed, which started the war, and Ned went off. I’d have found it surprising that his eldest brother and heir to the house was murdered, and he’d just nip off, get married to the eldest brother’s fiance, get her pregnant and THEN go to war… Jon is older than Robb, as far as I remember. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/116 "2015-05-06T11:58:59Z")
I’m almost certain that Ned was married to Catelyn before the war. It was an arranged marriage. At this point I’m just guessing—I’d have to re watch the early seasons to be sure—but I believe the marriage needed to happen in order to secure alliances. Look how everything is done through marriages in Westeros. The Red Wedding happened right in the middle of a war. A Stark had to be married to a Tully before their armies set off. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/117 "2015-05-06T12:00:30Z")
Robb was the eldest. The timeline is: [ul] [li]Rhaegar takes Lyanna[/li][li]Ned’s brother demands her back. Ned’s brother and father are killed.[/li][li]Ned marries Catelyn in order to fortify that alliance for the war. They consummate the marriage. [/li][li]The war.[/li][li]Ned comes back to Winterfell with Jon[/li][/ul] ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/118 "2015-05-06T13:11:59Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Robb was the eldest. > > The timeline is: > [ul] > [li]Rhaegar takes Lyanna[/li][li]Ned’s brother demands her back. Ned’s brother and father are killed.[/li][li]Ned marries Catelyn in order to fortify that alliance for the war. They consummate the marriage. [/li][li]The war.[/li][li]Ned comes back to Winterfell with Jon[/li][/ul] Based on what Robert and Ned said in S1E1, I think we can add another point between “The war” and “Ned comes back” – Lyanna’s death (under unknown circumstances, though IIRC Robert blames Rhaegar). ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/119 "2015-05-06T13:31:51Z")
> [@Smid](#): > > > [@Acsenray](#): > > > > If I recall correctly, Brandon Stark was killed, Ned and Catelyn were married, Catelyn was pregnant with Robb, and then Ned went off to war and came back with Jon. I’m guessing that Robb and Jon were nearly the same age. > > I thought it was Brandon Stark got killed, which started the war, and Ned went off. I thought Ned’s brother was Benjen, not Brandon. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174/120 "2015-05-06T13:36:51Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I thought Ned’s brother was Benjen, not Brandon. Ned had two brothers (and one sister). Benjen was his younger brother, the one in he Night’s Watch. Brandon was his older brother who was burned alive by Mad King Aerys. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-04-the-sons-of-the-harpy-5-3-15-show-discussion/719174.md?page=7)