# Game of Thrones 5.06 "Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken" 5/17/15 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 17, 2015, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-06-unbowed-unbent-unbroken-5-17-15/720249 "2015-05-17T17:44:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-06-unbowed-unbent-unbroken-5-17-15/720249/161 "2015-05-20T14:17:01Z")
The scene ta the end was _supposed_ to be horrifying. If that is what you felt then the creators did their job. I really hope this snaps Theon out of his tortured mind. He has done plenty of awful things but I always felt bad for him because he did almost all of them to try an please his terrible father. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-06-unbowed-unbent-unbroken-5-17-15/720249/162 "2015-05-20T14:22:21Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > When they made the loans they must have thought the lannisters would pay them back too. If stannis also then proves to be unable or unwilling to pay, then they need to find a yet bigger fish and spend more money on costly wars trying to get back the previous loans, and fingers crossed that this army doesn’t turn on them. > > The difference with the US is that the US has its own army; it’s a very different situation if you can just directly threaten force vs “we’ll make yet more loans to another army”. > > Anyway, if you’re talking about the crown (not the lannisters per se) and that stannis will be better at paying off the crown’s debts…maybe. The immediate situation is he’d be head of a crown still in serious financial difficulty + needing to pay back his own loan + whatever damage this new war would have done to the economy + some well-known saying about the imminent arrival of winter. And that’s assuming stannis wins. > > But “they _ollways_ get their guld”. I’m sure they do some research, they don’t just throw money and hope. Probability that Stannis will win, probability he’ll be able to pay, etc. Same as literally any loan given by anyone for anything. Why is this different? It seems mercenary armies are very common in Essos, so the Iron Bank basically does have an army, and that’s what Stannis used the loan for. The expected value of giving a loan to Stannis is positive in the estimation of the Iron Bank, that’s it. Maybe they’re wrong, but I don’t see any reason to assume it’s a stupid plan. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-06-unbowed-unbent-unbroken-5-17-15/720249/163 "2015-05-20T14:23:35Z")
> [@Quimby](#): > > The scene ta the end was _supposed_ to be horrifying. If that is what you felt then the creators did their job. > > I really hope this snaps Theon out of his tortured mind. He has done plenty of awful things but I always felt bad for him because he did almost all of them to try an please his terrible father. If there’s one thing GOT has taught us is the importance of good parenting to the kind of person your kid turns out to be. Ned’s kids are decent, Cersi raised a monster. Roose’s kid is a piece of shit, Sam’s dad raised a coward. If there’s two things that GOT has taught us is that being a good person will seriously hurt your chances of succeeding in life. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-06-unbowed-unbent-unbroken-5-17-15/720249/164 "2015-05-20T15:22:30Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Rape is sex without consent, and Sansa neither gave consent nor was in a position (due to the strongly implied threat of violence) that she could give consent. It’s very easy to prevail in an argument when you get to define the meanings of the words that frame the argument. Not that your proposed definition is wrong, mind you – merely that it’s not the only plausible use of the word. Rape can mean anything from a generalized description of the “violative abuse,” that is invariably all sexual intercourse in this society of staggering civil inequalities, at least [according to Andrea Dworkin](http://www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/dworkin/IntercourseI.html), to a specific criminal act in which each element of the crime is clearly defined by statute and case law. It’s perfectly valid to say that rape is sex without consent, but it’s not the only way in which that word is defined. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-06-unbowed-unbent-unbroken-5-17-15/720249/165 "2015-05-20T15:23:59Z")
> [@Shakester](#): > > With eunuchs, the cock is usually left on, it’s the balls that are removed. Tell the Chinese that. ---
**Author:** ![oft\_wears\_hats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7993a0/32.png) [@oft\_wears\_hats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oft_wears_hats)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-06-unbowed-unbent-unbroken-5-17-15/720249/166 "2015-05-20T15:31:18Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > If there’s one thing GOT has taught us is the importance of good parenting to the kind of person your kid turns out to be. Ned’s kids are decent, Cersi raised a monster. Roose’s kid is a piece of shit, Sam’s dad raised a coward. > > If there’s two things that GOT has taught us is that being a good person will seriously hurt your chances of succeeding in life. Sam is no coward. He may not be a great warrior like Jon, but his bravery has been well tested. When that White Walker came for Gilly’s baby, a coward would have sat there in shock, or run away. Sam took the only weapon he had to hand and tried to kill it. The fact that he had no idea that White Walkers are weak to obsidian makes an even better argument for his bravery. He had every reason to believe he had no chance of winning, and he did it anyway. That’s bravery. I’ll admit that he starts out looking like a coward, perhaps even being one, but he’s not a coward anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-06-unbowed-unbent-unbroken-5-17-15/720249/167 "2015-05-20T15:42:50Z")
Nominating Jon for Lord Commander took some balls, too. If it had gone sideways he would have had a target on his back. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-06-unbowed-unbent-unbroken-5-17-15/720249/168 "2015-05-20T15:55:46Z")
Now that Sam has had Jon as a substitute father his spine has stiffened. But he was a coward before he met Jon. And that was his father’s doing. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-06-unbowed-unbent-unbroken-5-17-15/720249/169 "2015-05-20T15:56:56Z")
> [@G0sp3l](#): > > …As for the budding War of the Roses, I don’t think the Gold Cloaks have any loyalty to Lannister anymore. I can’t recall if Marbrand (a Lannister loyalist) still leads them or not. I do recall it being mentioned that they were mostly mercs wage-earners now… Remember we saw the Gold Cloaks doing nothing from the rooftop when the Faith Militant mooks were upending the marketplace, despite calls for help. For the time being, at least, they seem to be taking orders from Cersei or some lieutenant of hers. > [@BlackKnight](#): > > …The amount of sexual violence against men in this series is mind-boggling. Against women, too. Obviously. > [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > By our modern standards, it was definitely a rape, and by “modern” I mean post-60s America, of course. Prior to then, there were no marital rape laws on the books. No one in Westeros would have regarded that as a rape. Agreed. As awful as Sansa’s wedding night was, and as monstrous as Ramsay is, he would almost surely have been within his rights to act as he did. > [@Acsenray](#): > > Whether or not he would have legally defined it as especially, Tyrion knew it would be wrong for him to j dost on his husbandly rights. I don’t understand this. > [@Mijin](#): > > …Hopefully there’s more logic to this in the books and it will come out in the show with time. There are no books. Read the OP. > [@oft\_wears\_hats](#): > > Sam is no coward… he starts out looking like a coward, perhaps even being one, but he’s not a coward anymore. I think he’s capable of heroism under some circumstances, but I wouldn’t regularly expect or demand it of him. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-06-unbowed-unbent-unbroken-5-17-15/720249/170 "2015-05-20T17:28:24Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It’s perfectly valid to say that rape is sex without consent, but it’s not the only way in which that word is defined. We could get hung up on choosing a definition of “rape” to work with or we can try to look at it at a more basic level Sansa is having sex with Ramsey. It is unpleasant and painful sex. She is doing it not because she believed that she will enjoy the experience but because Ramsey (unlike Tyrion) will not allow her to refuse. Whether we call that “rape” or something else, can we agree that: a woman from any time or society or legal regime context will feel something nearly the same as a result of that event and that it would trigger the same kinds of feelings of being assaulted and violated. Can we agree that it is in this basis that folks are having a problem with this scene? Does that help us at least understand their position? ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-06-unbowed-unbent-unbroken-5-17-15/720249/171 "2015-05-20T17:31:35Z")
Sansa hates the Bolton’s, her wedding night wouldn’t be an enjoyable experience no matter what Ramsay did, she still agreed to go through with it for her own reasons. That was certainly a lot worse than she expected, but she still went into the whole situation with full knowledge that she would be having sex with someone she detested. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-06-unbowed-unbent-unbroken-5-17-15/720249/172 "2015-05-20T17:32:45Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Sansa is having sex with Ramsey. It is unpleasant and painful sex. She is doing it not because she believed that she will enjoy the experience but because Ramsey (unlike Tyrion) will not allow her to refuse. But Littlefinger DID allow her to refuse, and she chose not to. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-06-unbowed-unbent-unbroken-5-17-15/720249/173 "2015-05-20T17:46:30Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > But Littlefinger DID allow her to refuse, and she chose not to. Is this a failure of imagination or a failure of empathy? Do you think that before marital rape became a legal concept that being taped by your husband felt any different? ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-06-unbowed-unbent-unbroken-5-17-15/720249/174 "2015-05-20T17:55:42Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Is this a failure of imagination or a failure of empathy? > > Do you think that before marital rape became a legal concept that being taped by your husband felt any different? I really have no idea what you are talking about anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-06-unbowed-unbent-unbroken-5-17-15/720249/175 "2015-05-20T17:53:51Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > I don’t understand this. “Insist on his rights as a husband.” Do you think that changing the legal definition of rape suddenly made certain kinds of sex feel bad when they didn’t before? Or do you suppose that the law has been changed because society realized that being forced to have sex by your husband feels something like being forced to have sex by a stranger? ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-06-unbowed-unbent-unbroken-5-17-15/720249/176 "2015-05-20T18:00:38Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > a woman from any time or society or legal regime context will feel something nearly the same as a result of that event and that it would trigger the same kinds of feelings of being assaulted and violated. I don’t see any reason why that would be true. Different cultures place different weight and importance on sex and sexual experiences, and it seems logical that that would influence how someone would feel about nonconsensual sex. But I also think that’s a red herring. Sansa was obviously being treated cruelly and was suffering both physically and emotionally. Getting into a pedantic debate about how her experience compared, psychologically, to a woman from a different culture going through a similar experience wouldn’t accomplish anything. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-06-unbowed-unbent-unbroken-5-17-15/720249/177 "2015-05-20T18:09:31Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > We could get hung up on choosing a definition of “rape” to work with or we can try to look at it at a more basic level > > Sansa is having sex with Ramsey. It is unpleasant and painful sex. She is doing it not because she believed that she will enjoy the experience but because Ramsey (unlike Tyrion) will not allow her to refuse. > > Whether we call that “rape” or something else, can we agree that: > > a woman from any time or society or legal regime context will feel something nearly the same as a result of that event and that it would trigger the same kinds of feelings of being assaulted and violated. I actually do not.\* But I understand why some people have a problem with the scene. Everyone is welcome to their opinion. I certainly can’t tell people what to feel. I may not agree with some of the reasons given…“She has no agency” (We haven’t seen that yet) “It serves to motivate Theon not her” (I highly doubt that. Theon is broken. He may assist in some halfass way, but he’s not going to suddenly become Action Theon) But I’m not going to tell people they have no right to be upset. \*I’m actually of the opinion that no, people back then would have been less likely to feel utterly violated and devastated as people do today because (and even today reactions vary) ‘such was their lot in life’ back then. Just like if the 13 year old miller’s daughter married the 19 year old shoemaker, no one back then would have been screaming ‘pedophile’ Just as when people lost half their children before the age of three it wasn’t a life-shattering event. It hurt badly of course but it wasn’t like it is today. It was something people were used to. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-06-unbowed-unbent-unbroken-5-17-15/720249/178 "2015-05-20T18:19:56Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > I don’t see any reason why that would be true. Different cultures place different weight and importance on sex and sexual experiences, and it seems logical that that would influence how someone would feel about nonconsensual sex. Then I ask the same question I asked above: > [@Acsenray](#): > > Do you think that changing the legal definition of rape suddenly made certain kinds of sex feel bad when they didn’t before? > > Or do you suppose that the law has been changed because society realized that being forced to have sex by your husband feels something like being forced to have sex by a stranger? > [@](#): > > But I also think that’s a red herring. Sansa was obviously being treated cruelly and was suffering both physically and emotionally. Getting into a pedantic debate about how her experience compared, psychologically, to a woman from a different culture going through a similar experience wouldn’t accomplish anything. Yes exactly. It was obvious that Sansa was feeling something that today we would call rape. The only reason that we have devolved into pedantic discussions is folks’ saying that people shouldn’t be upset about Sansa being raped because in context this was not legally defined as rape. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-06-unbowed-unbent-unbroken-5-17-15/720249/179 "2015-05-20T18:28:55Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > \*I’m actually of the opinion that no, people back then would have been less likely to feel utterly violated and devastated as people do today because (and even today reactions vary) ‘such was their lot in life’ back then. Then why didn’t Tyrion have sex with Sansa? Is he a man out of time? > [@](#): > > Just as when people lost half their children before the age of three it wasn’t a life-shattering event. It hurt badly of course but it wasn’t like it is today. Are you sure about that? I have heard things that suggest to me that it was just as devastating but that circumstances required that people cope with it in a way that allowed them to keep functioning. > [@](#): > > It was something people were used to. To me, being used to something tells us how to cope with something. It doesn’t change the initial experience. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2015, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-06-unbowed-unbent-unbroken-5-17-15/720249/180 "2015-05-20T18:36:13Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Do you think that before marital rape became a legal concept that being taped by your husband felt any different? Depends on how well he hides the videocam, doesn’t it? (Couldn’t resist.) Seriously, I think it probably DID feel different when it was accepted by society. There would have been no sense of the stigma of being raped because Sansa would not have recognized it as such, she would just have found it horrible because she hated Ramsay. Which is reason enough for distress, even without Theon watching. With Theon watching, it was sick stuff even for Westoros, I imagine. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-06-unbowed-unbent-unbroken-5-17-15/720249.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-06-unbowed-unbent-unbroken-5-17-15/720249.md?page=10)