# Game of Thrones 5.07 "The Gift" 5/24/2015 \[Show Discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 25, 2015, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759 "2015-05-25T01:11:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759/201 "2015-05-29T18:40:14Z")
> [@Made\_in\_Macau](#): > > It feels odd to me that Bran and Hodor haven’t been seen this series. > If this has been addressed here - sorry - I have to admit to skim reading the threads as some people write in so much detail it makes me feel they have information from elsewhere. > > MiM > [@Critical1](#): > > This thread is for Non Book, Show only posts, While some times people post stuff they shouldnt, most of the time detailed posts are from those with the better memories I think. It is some times remarkable that people can watch the same show but come out with such different ideas on what happened Well, it’s no secret and no Book spoiler. [The showrunners said so last november](http://www.ew.com/article/2014/11/05/game-of-thrones-why-bran-season-5) when the guy playing Hodor said he wasn’t on the show in season five. As the link says, the problem was that their storyline was too far ahead of the rest, so that’s why this season in “off”. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2015, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759/202 "2015-05-30T04:08:55Z")
Something has been bugging me this season and I finally realized what, the religious rules the sparrows are enforcing seem to have come out of nowhere! I assumed before this season this world was just different than our own in the past times, and adultery and homosexuality were not seen as sins. People openly have bastards, no one ever makes a real disparaging comment about homosexuality being a sin etc. Then all of a sudden this season woops turns out that is socially frowned on by the popular religion. Seemed to come out of nowhere, I could swear in the first season someone got walked in on. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@Charlie\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2015, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759/203 "2015-05-30T04:54:39Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Cersei’s about to get hers. I look forward to that, almost as much as I look forward to seeing Roose and Lil Rapsey get theirs. Are you sure about that? I’m not disputing it. It’s just that she has a way of getting out of these sticky situations. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2015, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759/204 "2015-05-30T13:58:10Z")
> [@grude](#): > > Something has been bugging me this season and I finally realized what, the religious rules the sparrows are enforcing seem to have come out of nowhere! I think what happened is that those religious rules existed, but were widely ignored. The Sparrows are a fundamentalist sect with little influence until Cersei put the High Sparrow in charge of the main religion. Suddenly these rules are being enforced. It would be as if someone here in the US or the UK began to enforce those Old Testament rules about not mixing fabrics, not eating shellfish and not having gay sex. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2015, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759/205 "2015-05-30T14:22:53Z")
> [@grude](#): > > Something has been bugging me this season and I finally realized what, the religious rules the sparrows are enforcing seem to have come out of nowhere! > > I assumed before this season this world was just different than our own in the past times, and adultery and homosexuality were not seen as sins. People openly have bastards, no one ever makes a real disparaging comment about homosexuality being a sin etc. > > Then all of a sudden this season woops turns out that is socially frowned on by the popular religion. > > Seemed to come out of nowhere, I could swear in the first season someone got walked in on. Of course, that was the entire point. The previous high septon was as corrupt as everyone else and didn’t give a shit. This guys are actually serious about religion and everyone is completely shocked about it. ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2015, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759/206 "2015-05-30T14:59:19Z")
I think the idea is that the Sparrows are an extreme interpretation of the popular religion. There seems to be three religions in Westeros (Essos, I am not sure about): The “Old gods” that I think have more favor in the North, the “New gods” which I believe are also called The Seven which was the mainstream religion of Kingslanding and I believe the one the Sparrows adhere to (but I am not sure of this), the third is The Lord of Light which appears to be this world’s first monotheistic religion. ---
**Author:** ![zbuzz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e19b73/32.png) [@zbuzz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zbuzz)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2015, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759/207 "2015-05-30T21:14:54Z")
> [@grude](#): > > Something has been bugging me this season and I finally realized what, the religious rules the sparrows are enforcing seem to have come out of nowhere! > > I assumed before this season this world was just different than our own in the past times, and adultery and homosexuality were not seen as sins. People openly have bastards, no one ever makes a real disparaging comment about homosexuality being a sin etc. > > Then all of a sudden this season woops turns out that is socially frowned on by the popular religion. > > Seemed to come out of nowhere, I could swear in the first season someone got walked in on. Well, Joffrey was upfront about disparaging it. He calls Loras a “degenerate” and says he’s considered making that “perversion” punishable by death. Of course, Joffrey isn’t exactly the best arbiter of what is or is not a perversion… So at least we can say they didn’t think it warranted a capital crime under civil law (or royal law? whatever) in Kingslanding. ---
**Author:** ![zbuzz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e19b73/32.png) [@zbuzz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zbuzz)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2015, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759/208 "2015-05-30T21:21:57Z")
> [@Quimby](#): > > I think the idea is that the Sparrows are an extreme interpretation of the popular religion. There seems to be three religions in Westeros (Essos, I am not sure about): The “Old gods” that I think have more favor in the North, the “New gods” which I believe are also called The Seven which was the mainstream religion of Kingslanding and I believe the one the Sparrows adhere to (but I am not sure of this), the third is The Lord of Light which appears to be this world’s first monotheistic religion. What about the drowned god of the Iron Islands? I don’t think that’s one of the seven, so maybe it’s one of the old gods, but it seems like Iron Islanders only ever invoke that one alone which would seem to make them monotheistic. But I could very well be wrong, I really have no idea. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2015, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759/209 "2015-05-30T21:39:56Z")
> [@zbuzz](#): > > What about the drowned god of the Iron Islands? I don’t think that’s one of the seven, so maybe it’s one of the old gods, but it seems like Iron Islanders only ever invoke that one alone which would seem to make them monotheistic. But I could very well be wrong, I really have no idea. I was thinking GRRM was slipping in a little Cthulhu reference via the “drowned god.” Frankly, Cthulhu seems a very reasonable god for the GoT world. ---
**Author:** ![River\_Hippie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/river_hippie/32/26_2.png) [@River\_Hippie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/River_Hippie)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2015, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759/210 "2015-05-30T22:34:48Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > I was thinking GRRM was slipping in a little Cthulhu reference via the “drowned god.” Frankly, Cthulhu seems a very reasonable god for the GoT world. Yes I thought the same thing when they first talked about The Drowned God. “That which is dead cannot die!” ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2015, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759/211 "2015-05-30T22:44:27Z")
> [@River\_Hippie](#): > > Yes I thought the same thing when they first talked about The Drowned God. > > “That which is dead cannot die!” Their sigil, The Kraken, even appears Lovecraftian. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2015, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759/212 "2015-05-30T22:45:08Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I think what happened is that those religious rules existed, but were widely ignored. The Sparrows are a fundamentalist sect with little influence until Cersei put the High Sparrow in charge of the main religion. Suddenly these rules are being enforced… Not only that, but the Faith of the Seven isn’t nearly as dominant in Westeros as Christianity was in Medieval Europe. At least 2 of the 7 kingdoms (the North & the Iron Islands) have a different majority religion, nobody batted an eye at Ned Stark being Hand of the King despite him being a pagan, and for the last 300 years it’s been deprived of any way to enforce it’s teachings (other than shaming nobles into translating sins into secular). Still it’s not like homosexuality wasn’t taboo prior to the Sparrows, it’s just that it was more a subject of ridicule than something you execute people for. Bastardy is also a big deal; hence the special surnames for recognized noble bastards and their lack of inheritance rights. I think that prior to Aegon the Conqueror (went Westeros was divided into different kingdoms) the High Septon was a much inferential figure (ala the Pope), maybe even with temporal authority over the region where the Faith had it’s HQ. Under the Targaryens the Faith was forced to look the way when their rulers openly practiced incest (& polygyny?) or accept appointees like illiterate stone masons or young boys as High Septon. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2015, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759/213 "2015-05-30T22:47:36Z")
> [@Quimby](#): > > I think the idea is that the Sparrows are an extreme interpretation of the popular religion. There seems to be three religions in Westeros (Essos, I am not sure about): The “Old gods” that I think have more favor in the North, the “New gods” which I believe are also called The Seven which was the mainstream religion of Kingslanding and I believe the one the Sparrows adhere to (but I am not sure of this), the third is The Lord of Light which appears to be this world’s first monotheistic religion. I can’t be sure if this is show material or solely book but…actually, I think the show does say the Lord of Light is the only God and doesn’t give such status to his Adversary. It’s whether the show says that the Seven are actually facets of one God, that I can’t remember. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2015, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759/214 "2015-05-30T23:35:43Z")
The Seven have all been named on the show, they are Father, Mother, Warrior, Maiden, Smith, Crone, and Stranger. This seems to be the main religion on Westeros outside of the North. The Old Gods is the religion where they worship at the Weirwood trees (the trees with faces), which remains popular in the North. Ned worshipped the Old Gods, but Catelyn (who wasn’t from the North) worshipped the Seven, so their kids grew up with both. I believe the Old Gods were worshipped by the First Men (ancestors of the men of the North and of the Wildlings, who fought the white walkers centuries ago. This has been referenced on the show). The Seven are, I believe, the religion of the Andals, which is the other main ethnic group in Westeros. (The King is styled “King of the Andals and the First Men”, or at least once on the show was called “King of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men.”) The Drowned God is worshipped in the Iron Islands. We’ve seen they practice water baptism and like saying “What is dead may never die”. The Lord of Light is a religion that I think comes more recently from Essos. They like burning people. I think Melisandre has referred to some of the other religions’ gods (e.g., the drowned god) as demons. Another Essos religion worships death, apparently. This is what the faceless men worship, calling him the “many faced god” (but it’s implied he’s death – Jaqen said “you know his name” to Arya). They consider all the other gods aspects of that one, apparently. At one point in an earlier season I think Jaqen also called him the “red god”. Syrio, who was also from Bravos, also said Death is the only god. The Dothraki worship horses, I think? Something about a great stallion? Edited to add: The Faith of the Seven also has a Bible, the Seven Pointed Star. I’m not sure if the other religions do. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2015, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759/215 "2015-05-31T09:39:16Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I think what happened is that those religious rules existed, but were widely ignored. The Sparrows are a fundamentalist sect with little influence until Cersei put the High Sparrow in charge of the main religion. Suddenly these rules are being enforced. > > It would be as if someone here in the US or the UK began to enforce those Old Testament rules about not mixing fabrics, not eating shellfish and not having gay sex. But the high sparrow guy was making comments that seemed like it was a populist religious uprising, like the general population was just sick of all this sin going on with the royalty. But the audience hasn’t really got a sense of that with the preceding seasons of the show. We really don’t get much view from the common people, but I have had no sense they care about banging out of wedlock or homosexuality. ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2015, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759/216 "2015-05-31T11:14:33Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > Bastardy is also a big deal; hence the special surnames for recognized noble bastards… Snow in the North, Sand in Dorne… I believe there are others in other parts of the Seven Kingdoms… I don’t think they’re just for the bastards of nobility. They’re the standard surnames for _any_ bastard. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2015, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759/217 "2015-05-31T12:10:45Z")
> [@grude](#): > > But the high sparrow guy was making comments that seemed like it was a populist religious uprising, like the general population was just sick of all this sin going on with the royalty. But the audience hasn’t really got a sense of that with the preceding seasons of the show. > > We really don’t get much view from the common people, but I have had no sense they care about banging out of wedlock or homosexuality. My take on it is that the people are very pissed at the state of affairs, and are flocking behind the sparrows who promise to wash away all this corruption, resulting in a bright future for all (“the gods demand justice”, etc…) But indeed it’s not stated in the show, and my view is based on what happens in the real world. ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2015, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759/218 "2015-05-31T13:16:20Z")
> [@grude](#): > > But the high sparrow guy was making comments that seemed like it was a populist religious uprising, like the general population was just sick of all this sin going on with the royalty. But the audience hasn’t really got a sense of that with the preceding seasons of the show. > > We really don’t get much view from the common people, but I have had no sense they care about banging out of wedlock or homosexuality. The Sparrows were well known among the lowest because they helped them. Cersei gave them authority and power so now they have power and the love of the populace. It’s funny that I thought the Mountain was going to be a Frankenstein’s Monster but Cersei is the one who ended up creating one instead 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2015, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759/219 "2015-05-31T13:47:45Z")
> [@Shakester](#): > > Snow in the North, Sand in Dorne… I believe there are others in other parts of the Seven Kingdoms… I don’t think they’re just for the bastards of nobility. They’re the standard surnames for _any_ bastard. I believe that only noble families have family names. Commoners have no surnames, legitimate or not—Shae, Ros, Gendry, etc. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2015, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759/220 "2015-05-31T14:09:18Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I believe that only noble families have family names. Commoners have no surnames, legitimate or not—Shae, Ros, Gendry, etc. Some don’t even have real names like Hotpie. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759.md?page=12)