# Game of Thrones 5.07 "The Gift" 5/24/2015 \[Show Discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 25, 2015, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759 "2015-05-25T01:11:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759/101 "2015-05-26T13:00:19Z")
Do we have any reason to believe that Littlefinger even cares what happens to Sansa? The only person he’s been shown to _really_ care about is her mother. It would be entirely consistent with his personality for him just to be using Sansa. ---
**Author:** ![nate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nate/32/13085_2.png) [@nate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nate)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759/102 "2015-05-26T13:02:25Z")
I liked this episode except for the cringe-worthy Sam/Gilly attempted rape scene… what a cliche that was. Question, did the old lady in Winterfell’s instructions to Sansa to light a candle in the tower window come from Briene? I wasn’t aware that a connection was made between Briene and anyone inside Winterfell. ---
**Author:** ![Reepicheep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ed655f/32.png) [@Reepicheep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reepicheep)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759/103 "2015-05-26T13:10:34Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I take it to mean that Mel has to keep raising the stakes – her ‘tricks’ only work once, and then she has to up the ante with something more substantial. So first it was just some hanky panky, then leeches with ‘king’s blood’, then burning someone with king’s blood, and then, perhaps, burning large groups of people at once. I took it to mean that for one on one things - killing one person, effecting one person - it could be a little of royal blood that was burned. However for larger things - effecting many people - an entire life or lives had to be burned. This is why Melisandre burned several people when they all left Dragonstone to go to war. ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759/104 "2015-05-26T13:53:02Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Do we have any reason to believe that Littlefinger even cares what happens to Sansa? The only person he’s been shown to _really_ care about is her mother. It would be entirely consistent with his personality for him just to be using Sansa. I agree, and can’t figure out why quite a few people believe that Sansa is special to him in any way. I think she’s just a pawn in his game, just like everyone else. Wasn’t that the purpose of Roz’s warning to Shae? I’m not entirely convinced he even had any real feelings for Catelyn. Maybe she was just a highborn who was his first path to societal elevation, i.e. he had this plan for accumulating power since his youth. ---
**Author:** ![Tangent](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tangent/32/3098_2.png) [@Tangent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tangent)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759/105 "2015-05-26T14:13:22Z")
> [@nate](#): > > Question, did the old lady in Winterfell’s instructions to Sansa to light a candle in the tower window come from Briene? I wasn’t aware that a connection was made between Briene and anyone inside Winterfell. Brienne talked to an old man outside Winterfell and said she needed to get a message to Sansa. Then later we see the old woman pass the candle and a message to Sansa to light it in the broken tower if ever she’s in trouble. It’s not definitive, but I would probably connect those dots. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759/106 "2015-05-26T15:01:35Z")
> [@Tangent](#): > > Brienne talked to an old man outside Winterfell and said she needed to get a message to Sansa. Then later we see the old woman pass the candle and a message to Sansa to light it in the broken tower if ever she’s in trouble. It’s not definitive, but I would probably connect those dots. Specially after the scene of Brienne staring at the tower. ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759/107 "2015-05-26T15:08:33Z")
I am not even sure you could say Littlefinger loved Cat. It seemed more like he was just bitter that Ned got her and he didn’t. He certainly let her die. ---
**Author:** ![Smid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/838e76/32.png) [@Smid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smid)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759/108 "2015-05-26T15:11:21Z")
> [@Quimby](#): > > I am not even sure you could say Littlefinger loved Cat. It seemed more like he was just bitter that Ned got her and he didn’t. He certainly let her die. It is quite possible he was involved with the planning of the Red Wedding too, so not just let her die, planned her death… ---
**Author:** ![G0sp3l](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c68b51/32.png) [@G0sp3l](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G0sp3l)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759/109 "2015-05-26T15:29:16Z")
> [@grude](#): > > A stallion is a horse, something you ride. > > Is Dany mother to something you can ride that will bleep the world, and scare everyone? 😛 You just blew my mind! That makes so much sense, yet I never saw it! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Lowry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sam\_Lowry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Lowry)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759/110 "2015-05-26T15:35:03Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Do we have any reason to believe that Littlefinger even cares what happens to Sansa? The only person he’s been shown to _really_ care about is her mother. It would be entirely consistent with his personality for him just to be using Sansa. I think he cares to some extent. I think he’d try to avoid damage to her, but he’s also not going to move heaven and earth to keep her safe. Everyone is acceptable collateral damage for him, Sansa slightly less so than most people, but she’s still acceptable collateral damage. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759/111 "2015-05-26T15:37:24Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I don’t think he considers marital rape as a big deal. I also thinks he’s perfectly willing to go through temporary unpleasant moments to ensure future triumph, and expect Sansa to now behave in the same way. It’s not so much that Littlefinger doesn’t consider marital rape a big deal, it’s that he doesn’t understand the concept at all. Neither does Sansa. Neither does anyone else in Westoros. If you marry a man, he can have sex with you, whether or not you want to, that’s just part of the standard medieval, er, GoT view of marriage. However, I think forcing Sansa to have sex while someone else watches might be considered over the line. I don’t know that however. ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759/112 "2015-05-26T16:56:47Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Here are their fields: > > [Order of Maesters | Wiki of Westeros | Fandom](http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Maesters) Was this mentioned on the television show? ---
**Author:** ![SecretaryofEvil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@SecretaryofEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecretaryofEvil)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759/113 "2015-05-26T17:06:39Z")
> [@Sam\_Lowry](#): > > I think he cares to some extent. I think he’d try to avoid damage to her, but he’s also not going to move heaven and earth to keep her safe. Everyone is acceptable collateral damage for him, Sansa slightly less so than most people, but she’s still acceptable collateral damage. I would agree with this analysis. I imagine Littlefinger doesn’t want Sansa to suffer in roughly the same way that he doesn’t want his favorite pair of shoes to get muddy. Are people assuming that Littlefinger didn’t have sex with Sansa? In previous threads some people were talking as if Sansa was a virgin before her very unfortunate second marriage but I thought it was very heavily implied that Littlefinger and Sansa had sex. Last season he enters her bedroom and she tells him “I know what you want,” and then there’s a smash cut to Sansa descending a staircase looking all smug and mature wearing her sexy bad girl dress. Despite his evilness, a small part of me is kind of rooting for Littlefinger. I get some serious schadenfreude in seeing a (relatively) low born man smacking around a bunch of snooty hereditary aristocrats using only the power of his intellect. Who doesn’t love an underdog? On the subject of things I’m rooting for, I can’t wait for Stannis to get his hands on Ramsay Bolton. Joffrey had his faults, but at least Joffrey was funny. Sadly, I think we might have to wait until next season for a Bolton/Baratheon showdown. ---
**Author:** ![Precambrianmollusc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/precambrianmollusc/32/63_2.png) [@Precambrianmollusc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Precambrianmollusc)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759/114 "2015-05-26T17:41:16Z")
> [@BlackKnight](#): > > Was this mentioned on the television show? According to the citation in the website it comes from a special feature in season 4 blu ray , so technically it is in the show and not from the book. Most of stuff on that site seams to be HBO sources, but there are some book related sections. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759/115 "2015-05-26T17:51:23Z")
So far as I can tell LF’s options are thus: Conquer Winterfell with the Vale knights, marry Sansa be named a traitor by the crown, lose de facto control over the Trident and probably the Vale. Be named Warden of the North, put someone elses head on a spike, marry Sansa, get found out, lose the Trident, the title WotN, (though he would still be the traitorish Lord of Winterfell) and probably the Vale. Be named Warden of the North, put Sansa’s head on a spike (or let her escape and yes, he earns a lot of enmity in the North doing that) keep the Trident, and the title of Protector of the Vale. I hope this puts to rest all the claims that Littlefinger loves Sansa and would never willingly let her be harmed because of all the options, the last best suits him. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759/116 "2015-05-26T17:55:13Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > So far as I can tell LF’s options are thus: > > Conquer Winterfell with the Vale knights, marry Sansa be named a traitor by the crown, lose de facto control over the Trident and probably the Vale. > > Be named Warden of the North, put someone elses head on a spike, marry Sansa, get found out, lose the Trident, the title WotN, (though he would still be the traitorish Lord of Winterfell) and probably the Vale. > > Be named Warden of the North, put Sansa’s head on a spike (or let her escape and yes, he earns a lot of enmity in the North doing that) keep the Trident, and the title of Protector of the Vale. > > I hope this puts to rest all the claims that Littlefinger loves Sansa and would never willingly let her be harmed because of all the options, the last best suits him. D) Take control of Winterfell, then use the armies of the Vale, Riverlands, and North to conquer the rest of the kingdoms and rule everything. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759/117 "2015-05-26T17:56:56Z")
> [@Quimby](#): > > I am not even sure you could say Littlefinger loved Cat. It seemed more like he was just bitter that Ned got her and he didn’t. He certainly let her die. 1. He told Cat this (Ned’s death) was an opportunity for them to get together she rightly called him insane. 2. How did he ‘let her die’? He was at sea on the way to the Vale when the Red Wedding was planned and set in motion. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759/118 "2015-05-26T17:58:53Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > D) Take control of Winterfell, then use the armies of the Vale, Riverlands, and North to conquer the rest of the kingdoms and rule everything. Without the crown’s blessing he’d lose half or more of the houses in those regions. Now given enough time he could probably secure their loyalty in the event of civil war. ---
**Author:** ![oft\_wears\_hats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7993a0/32.png) [@oft\_wears\_hats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oft_wears_hats)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759/119 "2015-05-26T18:00:49Z")
> [@SecretaryofEvil](#): > > I would agree with this analysis. I imagine Littlefinger doesn’t want Sansa to suffer in roughly the same way that he doesn’t want his favorite pair of shoes to get muddy. This. I think Baelish thinks of Sansa as a sentimentally valuable chess piece, but still a chess piece. Not as disposable as nearly everyone else he interacts with, but still disposable. He’ll try to accomplish his goals without sacrificing her, but she’s still in play, and if he needs to sacrifice her for checkmate, so be it. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759/120 "2015-05-26T18:05:06Z")
I _suppose_ it’s possible that he could appeal to Ceresi and say he simply can’t control the North without Sansa being alive. "Let’s all just declare her innocent, and I’ll keep her in Winterfell for the rest of her life. Pretty please, remember all I’ve done for you, sincerely…Petyr Baelish" [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759.md?page=7)