# Game of Thrones 5.07 "The Gift" 5/24/2015 \[Show Discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 25, 2015, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759 "2015-05-25T01:11:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![The\_Evil\_Prince\_Zorte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@The\_Evil\_Prince\_Zorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Evil_Prince_Zorte)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759/121 "2015-05-26T18:34:59Z")
Peter can take Winterfell, marry Sansa and own both the Vale and the North. There is nothing Cersei will be able to do about it from her cell. He and Olenna will make sure the guy who testified against Loras disappears before the trial so Loras and Margery go free. There is nothing they can do about Lancel so Cersei rots in prison while Peter and Olenna make a new small council, perhaps with Peter as the Hand. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759/122 "2015-05-26T18:38:31Z")
> [@The\_Evil\_Prince\_Zorte](#): > > Peter can take Winterfell, marry Sansa and own both the Vale and the North. There is nothing Cersei will be able to do about it from her cell. He and Olenna will make sure the guy who testified against Loras disappears before the trial so Loras and Margery go free. There is nothing they can do about Lancel so Cersei rots in prison while Peter and Olenna make a new small council, perhaps with Peter as the Hand. And how does Tommen take the news that his Hand is married to one of the two assasins who killed his brother? ---
**Author:** ![oft\_wears\_hats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7993a0/32.png) [@oft\_wears\_hats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oft_wears_hats)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759/123 "2015-05-26T18:39:36Z")
I’m pretty sure that Baelish’s endgame does not include having Cersei (or the rest of House Lannister) in the picture. Without Tywin, they’re on life support, better to point them at a mutual enemy and let them burn themselves out. Sure, Kevan seems to have a good head on his shoulders, but he also doesn’t seem to give a shit about what’s going on. He would only move to defend the family after it was obvious that Baelish was going after them, and by then it would be too late. ---
**Author:** ![River\_Hippie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/river_hippie/32/26_2.png) [@River\_Hippie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/River_Hippie)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759/124 "2015-05-26T19:25:16Z")
I feel like anyone expecting Ramsay to get his just desserts this season in going to be disappointed. Too juicy of a character to not keep around for a while. Roose may get his, however. Just my gut feeling. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759/125 "2015-05-26T19:29:06Z")
> [@And\_his\_buzzer\_goes](#): > > I’m still surprised Littlefinger left Sansa in Winterfell as Ramsey’s rapetoy. Plans and plotting aside, I always thought he would keep her relatively out of harm’s way. She still has all her body parts, hair, teeth and skin. That’s basically hog heaven for a GoT character from Season 1. > [@Oakminster](#): > > I don’t get why the sand snake girl would save Bron like that. What’s in it for her? Personally, I get the feeling that the people of Dorne are supposed to be the _good guys_. Or the closest thing that exists in this universe, at least. Chaotic good, maybe. The sand snakes didn’t want to kill Myrcella, they wanted to kidnap her to draw Lannisters to Dorne or perhaps simply a ransom, in retaliation for Oberyn. And the one with nice tits didn’t really want to kill Bronn, just make him sweat a little. Probably that poison wasn’t fatal at all. That’s my interpretation at least. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759/126 "2015-05-26T19:43:01Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > Without the crown’s blessing he’d lose half or more of the houses in those regions. Now given enough time he could probably secure their loyalty in the event of civil war. The crown’s blessing to overthrow the crown? All the houses in both the North and the Riverlands already fought against the crown. I’m not sure why they’d abandon the North with a Stark at the helm again. The Vale wanted to join the North during the war, but Lysa stopped it. Not sure why they’d abandon a leader that proposes doing what they want to anyway. Just have to convince the Tyrells to stay out of it and I think they’re in. Littlefinger has the Queen of Thorns’ ear… ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759/127 "2015-05-26T21:40:59Z")
> [@oft\_wears\_hats](#): > > Sure, Kevan seems to have a good head on his shoulders, but he also doesn’t seem to give a shit about what’s going on. He would only move to defend the family after it was obvious that Baelish was going after them, and by then it would be too late. I think if it was up to Kevan, he would pull everyone back to casterly rock and wait out the winter. Declan ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759/128 "2015-05-26T22:14:07Z")
> [@River\_Hippie](#): > > I feel like anyone expecting Ramsay to get his just desserts this season in going to be disappointed. … I agree. Cersei is first in line for the Just Desserts Express; Ramsay will have to wait until season 6 (or even 7). The producers aren’t going to squander the audience’s big emotional hit at seeing a hated character suffer, by shoehorning two of them into the finale of one season. That would be a waste. ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759/129 "2015-05-26T22:17:48Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Probably that poison wasn’t fatal at all. That’s my interpretation at least. I like the idea that the antidote is a temporary reprieve and he has to keep taking it or the poison will come back. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759/130 "2015-05-26T22:23:09Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > I agree. Cersei is first in line for the Just Desserts Express; Ramsay will have to wait until season 6 (or even 7). The producers aren’t going to squander the audience’s big emotional hit at seeing a hated character suffer, by shoehorning two of them into the finale of one season. That would be a waste. And HBO loves them some torture porn. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759/131 "2015-05-26T22:28:48Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > And HBO loves them some torture porn. :rolleyes: _Please_! It’s high-minded _literature_!!! ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759/132 "2015-05-26T22:33:37Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > _Please_! It’s high-minded _literature_!!! No book mentions! :p:D ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759/133 "2015-05-26T22:51:18Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No book mentions! :p:D :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759/134 "2015-05-27T02:55:05Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > Good old Bronn, saved by boobs. Good think she mentioned the poison, for a few moments I was wonder if her vagina had magical powers (Bronn didn’t collapse until after she opened her dress). > [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > …4. I cheered when Tommen said he’d raise an army and execute every single fanatic. Finally, someone is thinking straight. It would be nice if he’d take his Kingsguard and march right up there to get nicer accomedations for his wife though… Except the one thing Cersei’s right about his Margery being the first causality of that war. Well Cersei is also right about always acting in Tommen’s best interests; she just has a really twisted interpretation of what they are. > [@DigitalC](#): > > Hmm Pycelle and Qyburn? probably Tommen mostly. Shit, is Littlefinger still in the small council? I’m guessing Tommen summons Great-Uncle Kevan back to the Small Council; he made it quite clear he was willing to respond to Tommen’s commands, just not Cersei. > [@oft\_wears\_hats](#): > > …\* The last horse finally crosses the finish line WRT The Sparrows. The look on Cersei’s face when she realized that they were turning on her was priceless. I can’t believe she didn’t see that coming. I really hope that Olenna rescues Lorace and Margaery and Cersei just rots there. I so look forward to more of Cersei sparring with the septas. 🙂 > [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > I’m curious as to what LF’s gift to Oleanna was? Info that Lancel slept with Tommen? High Sparrow should already have had that info. I suppose he could have been talking about the last day, but he made it sound like Lancel confessed all when he joined up. He said he was giving her the same gift he gave Cersei and then described the gift as a handsome young man; I think it’s pretty obvious he was referring to Olyvar. > [@clairobscur](#): > > Sure, but has never stated that it works this way. There are systems in which females inherit only if there’s no remaining male (can’t remember how it’s called). And even where they never inherit, period. I’m going to assume male-preference primogeniture unless something onscreen demonstrates otherwise. BTW you’re thinking of Semi-salic law (females only inherit when all male dynasts are dead). Salic law is where females are completely excluded from the succession. It applied to the former French and Prussian/German monarchies, and in modern Japan (Japan copied it from Prussia). > [@Shakester](#): > > Why? Olenna’s granddaughter is married to Tommen; if Tommen is a bastard, then Margaery isn’t Queen. How would that be a good thing for Olenna? Margaery free, but married to a deposed bastard is better than Margaery dead. Plus there’s it’ great a power vacuum that the Tyrells are in a good position to step into. > [@BlackKnight](#): > > I think the " young man" in question is the male whore who implicated Loras to begin with and who we know was working in Littlefinger’s brothel at some point. Littlefinger probably knows where to find him and is willing to hand him over to see if he can be convinced to retract or alter his testimony. And the High Sparrow made a point in saying Loras & Margaery would be tried by him & a 6 other clerics. That rules out a trial by combat and will probably be the same format as Tyrion’s trial (albeit with more judges & praying). So at least it’ll vaguely resemble a trial in the modern sense with witness testimony. > [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > This. I’m perfectly OK with not seeing her naked again. But they could have had that conversation over a meal or something instead. She could be having a meal while watching Daario bathes or covers his naked body with oil. > [@Reepicheep](#): > > …On the prophecy that all of Cersei’s children will all have a crown of gold – I think Mychal will wed Trystane and wear the crown of Dorne as wife of the crown prince (sorry don’t know the Dorneish title for Trystane as eldest son of the Prince of Dorne) I don’t think their is a distinct title for the heir apparent (there doesn’t appear to one for Lordships in the rest of Westeros), if we use real world principalities as an analogy it could be something like “Hereditary Prince of Dorne”. > [@clairobscur](#): > > …For my part, I fear the mom will cause Shireen demise. I don’t think the red woman would accept going against the decision of Stannis, but I could see mom acting all by herself, killing her daughter and bringing the blood to unsuspecting Stannis and Melisandre. Stannis would have to be convinced that Melisandre wasn’t in on it, or else she’d burn along with Selyse. > [@SecretaryofEvil](#): > > …Are people assuming that Littlefinger didn’t have sex with Sansa? In previous threads some people were talking as if Sansa was a virgin before her very unfortunate second marriage but I thought it was very heavily implied that Littlefinger and Sansa had sex. Last season he enters her bedroom and she tells him “I know what you want,” and then there’s a smash cut to Sansa descending a staircase looking all smug and mature wearing her sexy bad girl dress…On the subject of things I’m rooting for, I can’t wait for Stannis to get his hands on Ramsay Bolton. Joffrey had his faults, but at least Joffrey was funny. Sadly, I think we might have to wait until next season for a Bolton/Baratheon showdown. I don’t like Littlefinger & Sansa had sex; her losing her virginity is too big a deal to be a vaguely implied off screen even. Plus Littlefinger made a big deal out of it to Lord Bolton, and was caught off guard when the latter didn’t give a fuck. As for Ramsay; I don’t want Stannis to get is hands on him. I want Sansa to do the dead herself. 😉 Maybe she can even take his favourite toy away first. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759/135 "2015-05-27T03:47:51Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Olenna knew the rumours about the Baratheon children, but hard proof would be a game changer. Lancel has enough information and her himself without bringing the paternity of her children into it. The fact that he helped her kill her husband and then fornicated with her is probably enough. (No idea if first cousin is considered incest in Westeros, but the mother of the king having sex with the boy who helped her kill her husband is probably enough.) I’m wondering if Sansa will get Ramsey annulled on the grounds she’s married to Tyrion (once she has powerful enough allies to get her away from him of course). And if she’s developed feelings for Tyrion. Also wondering how a slavemaster who specializes in gladiators made it to that age when he was stupid enough to enter an arena unarmed and filled with armed-to-the-teeth people who had reason to want him dead and not much to lose by going for it. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759/136 "2015-05-27T04:14:10Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > As for Ramsay; I don’t want Stannis to get is hands on him. I want Sansa to do the dead herself. 😉 Maybe she can even take his favourite toy away first. I will be perfectly happy if Sansa stabs him with whatever that object she grabbed, which lets her get away, and then he chases her with a sword, being like all “I’m Mr. shirtless crazy sword man”, and then he thinks he has her cornered, and ooh, whoops, a certain tall angry lady from Tarth is there, and she finally gets to fulfill at least part of her protect-the-Stark-girls vow. ---
**Author:** ![Smid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/838e76/32.png) [@Smid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smid)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759/137 "2015-05-27T08:05:45Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > 1. How did he ‘let her die’? He was at sea on the way to the Vale when the Red Wedding was planned and set in motion. With Littlefinger, I’ve never sure. He might have said he was on the sea. I always assumed that LF was part of the organisation of the Red Wedding. Someone had to get talking to the Freys and the Boltons, and LF seemed to be errand boy for that sort of stuff… ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759/138 "2015-05-27T09:20:33Z")
> [@SecretaryofEvil](#): > > Are people assuming that Littlefinger didn’t have sex with Sansa? In previous threads some people were talking as if Sansa was a virgin before her very unfortunate second marriage but I thought it was very heavily implied that Littlefinger and Sansa had sex. Last season he enters her bedroom and she tells him “I know what you want,” and then there’s a smash cut to Sansa descending a staircase looking all smug and mature wearing her sexy bad girl dress. I never thought this scene as impying they had sex. Rather as showing that Sansa was now a different person. Also, Sansa assured Ramsay she was a virgin during last episode, and I don’t think lying about it would have gone so well. In fact, I’ve been thinking for a while that Littlefinger probably never had sex with anyone. At least, he never displayed any interest in it for himself, despite running a brothel. Oh! And Littlefinger is is also one of my favourite characters in the show. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759/139 "2015-05-27T09:31:28Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > I hope this puts to rest all the claims that Littlefinger loves Sansa and would never willingly let her be harmed because of all the options, the last best suits him. I disagree. Why would you assume he would lose control of the trident/the vale? Who is going to take them away from him, and how? He’ll be best friend with whoever ends up being considered king in the area, but presumably he will make sure nobody is in such a position. That is nobody has enough authority/manpower/stature/whatever to actually rule the seven kingdoms. Since after all the north and the vale just aren’t enough for him. He won’t be satisfied with just being one of the most powerful lord. My guess about littlefinger is that he will raise to ultimate power or with ultimate power just within his reach before meeting his demise. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759/140 "2015-05-27T10:11:58Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I disagree. Why would you assume he would lose control of the trident/the vale? Who is going to take them away from him, and how? He’ll be best friend with whoever ends up being considered king in the area, but presumably he will make sure nobody is in such a position. That is nobody has enough authority/manpower/stature/whatever to actually rule the seven kingdoms. > > Since after all the north and the vale just aren’t enough for him. He won’t be satisfied with just being one of the most powerful lord. > > My guess about littlefinger is that he will raise to ultimate power or with ultimate power just within his reach before meeting his demise. I’m guessing he might even be controlling or sitting on the throne, just in time for a crazy chick riding a dragon to fly in. I’m not sure what the point would be, perhaps to show even the best manipulator can’t predict everything? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-07-the-gift-5-24-2015-show-discussion/720759.md?page=8)