# Game of Thrones 5.08 "Hardhome" 5/31/15 \[Show discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 1, 2015, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-08-hardhome-5-31-15-show-discussion/721309 "2015-06-01T02:12:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-08-hardhome-5-31-15-show-discussion/721309/181 "2015-06-02T21:46:24Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Ok, can you explain what the issue was with the guy being told NO by “the Gambler” and then being dragged off by his goons? He wanted to insure his boat trip, the insurer looked at the map and said no. Seemed simple enough. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-08-hardhome-5-31-15-show-discussion/721309/182 "2015-06-02T21:49:13Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Umm, not quite. The Valyrian sword got knocked out of his hands and he picked up a couple replacement weapons, then found his Valyrian sword again, just in time. Thanks. I swear I saw him unsheathe it before killing the WW, but now that you mention it, I do remember his sword getting knocked out of his hands. > [@Lobohan](#): > > I’d assume that the faceless men check into their claims. Or that lying to them is very dangerous. Jaquen certainly knows when Arya is lying, and smacks her with his cane each time. I’m sure he can tell a legit mission from common vindication. Also, does anybody know if Jaquen _is_ the many faced god? Or a high priest? Or is he just one of many Drill Sergeants in the service? Or we don’t yet know his exact role in the organization yet? ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@Charlie\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-08-hardhome-5-31-15-show-discussion/721309/183 "2015-06-02T22:18:43Z")
> [@SeaDragonTattoo](#): > > Isn’t Arya’s little sword Valyrian too? > > I was also thinking they’ll be really fucked if the giant turns White Walker. Those kids - wow, well done. Creepiest thing GoT has ever done. As a horror fan, that was outstanding. > > I’m loving Tyrion and Dany together. Did you think it might have been possible those kids looked like her own kids? Or maybe they were her own kids? ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-08-hardhome-5-31-15-show-discussion/721309/184 "2015-06-02T22:24:45Z")
> [@Charlie\_Wayne](#): > > Or maybe they were her own kids? There’s no reason to think they WERE her own kids. We’d seen her put her own kids on a boat earlier, and as far as we know all the boats got out to the ships just fine. It’s possible that she had other children who had vanished years earlier and now had returned in zombie form. More plausible is that they were kids of friends of hers, or maybe her own childhood friends who had been in zombie form for years. Most plausibly, she just was too freaked out by the sight of zombified children to keep fighting. This was a fantastic episode… all of those previous episode setting up situations all paying off. If this pace continues for the last two episodes of the season… my goodness. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-08-hardhome-5-31-15-show-discussion/721309/185 "2015-06-02T22:37:52Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > I know I’m not the only one, and don’t mean this as arrogantly as it sounds, but it seems that a Dany & The Dragons vs White Walkers climax has been inevitable since the end of Season 1. Doesn’t make it any less eagerly anticipated. I agree with everyone that GOT appears to be heading towards a dragon/white-walker battle but if there’s one thing we’ve learned it’s that GOT rarely goes in the direction we think it will. ---
**Author:** ![LouLou7](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@LouLou7](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouLou7)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-08-hardhome-5-31-15-show-discussion/721309/186 "2015-06-02T23:00:22Z")
[Also, does anybody know if Jaquen _is_ the many faced god? Or a high priest? Or is he just one of many Drill Sergeants in the service? Or we don’t yet know his exact role in the organization yet? [/QUOTE] When Arya first encounters Jaquen, he is a captive in a traveling jail wagon with some other common criminals, and apparently he can’t escape from the wagon. So, not so much with the supernatural stuff at that point, if he got himself captured, couldn’t get out of the cell wagon, and needs a little girl to rescue him. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-08-hardhome-5-31-15-show-discussion/721309/187 "2015-06-02T23:05:02Z")
> [@Charlie\_Wayne](#): > > Did you think it might have been possible those kids looked like her own kids? > > Or maybe they were her own kids? I think she just refused to fight children, even undead. When they came at her all she did was cross her two swords across her chest in a token act of self defence. ---
**Author:** ![StarvingButStrong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/starvingbutstrong/32/335_2.png) [@StarvingButStrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StarvingButStrong)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-08-hardhome-5-31-15-show-discussion/721309/188 "2015-06-02T23:25:01Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Already answered, but I’ll give you the play by play to help clarify: Thank you1 Thank was very clear. > [@](#): > > PS: Firefox natively recognizes “Valerian” as proper but “valerian” as incorrect. Well, there’s a herb used in folk medicine called Valerian. (I dimly remember it’s to help you sleep.)] ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-08-hardhome-5-31-15-show-discussion/721309/189 "2015-06-02T23:29:32Z")
I belatedly twigged the woman with the two children who became undead was the pretty reporter in Borgen! Holy smoke!!! > **[Birgitte Hjort Sørensen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birgitte_Hjort_S%C3%B8rensen)** > > Birgitte Hjort Sørensen (born 16 January 1982) is a Danish actress. She has been nominated for three Robert Awards and one Bodil Award. Born in Hillerød and raised in Birkerød, Sørensen aspired to an acting career after watching the West End production of the musical Chicago while at school. She graduated from the Danish National School of Performing Arts. Her acting debut was in a minor role in the television series The Eagle in 2005. She followed this by playing Roxie Hart in a Copenhagen produ... ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-08-hardhome-5-31-15-show-discussion/721309/190 "2015-06-02T23:33:29Z")
> [@Shakester](#): > > …ETA: Given that Kevan sees that Cersei is a nasty piece of work, I expect he’ll strongly advise Tommen to leave her to the Sparrows. At this point, her only choice will be to confess and throw herself on the mercy of the Mother, as advised by Qyburn, which should make entertaining viewing. The problem is that if Cersei confesses to _everything_ Tommen’s claim to the Iron Throne is completely invalided which is very bad news for the Lannisters; especially given that they’re bankrupt. > [@Tamerlane](#): > > …Now psychotic _Joffrey_ would have been in full “off with their heads” mode, but let’s give poor Tommen credit. He’s failing because he’s young and means well. Joffrey probably would have immediately precipitated a massive bloodbath he might not have walked away from. Assuming Joffrey allowed the Faith Militant to be reinstated in the first place he never would have let it get as far Margaery being arrested in the first place. He wouldn’t have cared much about Loras, but might have summoned the High Sparrow just to shut Margaery up (I imagine she’d go the crying hysterically about her brother route instead of what she did with Tommen). Then after the High Sparrow refused to meet with him he’d have send his guards to bring him to the Red Keep (with or without the rest of his body) without giving a damn if Loras got killed in the process. > [@clairobscur](#): > > I’m not convinced the white walkers qualify as “undead”. They seem to be human born and turned into whatever they are. I view them more as some kind of demons or aliens. We’ve seen the Night King turn a human baby into a White Walker (which was the fate of all of Crastor’s sons save Sam Jr); presumably those babies proceed to grow into adult White Walkers instead of just slowly rotting like the Wights. Either that or the White Walkers were all turned as adults and the Night King keeps making eternal infants for some nefarious purpose. > [@clairobscur](#): > > Presumably, he’s not in charge anymore (well…never was, actually), his great uncle Kevan is. It’s a little vague how exactly a regency works in Westeros. Despite being underage Joffrey was able to order all sorts of things against his regent’s wishes (like Ned’s beheading), but on the other hand he couldn’t stop his grandfather from excluding him from Small Council meetings or sending him to bed. Neither Joffrey or Tommen have been allowed to make a decision of state on their own. It seems like instead of the Regent just issuing decrees in the King’s name without actually consulting him (which is how a regency worked in the UK) they actually the King rubber stamp decrees on their “advice” (which is how modern ministerial government works in the UK). There are a lot of examples in European history where regencies officially ended when the monarch came of age or married, but the former regents remained as the power behind the throne for years afterward. [QUOTE=up\_the\_junction up\_the\_junction] I belatedly twigged the woman with the two children who became undead was the pretty reporter in Borgen! Holy smoke!!! [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birgitt](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birgitt)…\_S%C3%B8rensen [/QUOTE] Thanks, I knew I recognized her from somewhere, but couldn’t figure it out without the character’s name to search. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-08-hardhome-5-31-15-show-discussion/721309/191 "2015-06-02T23:49:38Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > The problem is that if Cersei confesses to _everything_ Tommen’s claim to the Iron Throne is completely invalided which is very bad news for the Lannisters; especially given that they’re bankrupt. She doesn’t need to confess to everything, just to what Lancel claimed. The incest charge comes from sleeping with him. The sparrows might be crazy fundies but every charge they’ve raised came from direct evidence, not rumors. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-08-hardhome-5-31-15-show-discussion/721309/192 "2015-06-02T23:56:54Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > It’s a little vague how exactly a regency works in Westeros. Despite being underage Joffrey was able to order all sorts of things against his regent’s wishes (like Ned’s beheading), but on the other hand he couldn’t stop his grandfather from excluding him from Small Council meetings or sending him to bed. Neither Joffrey or Tommen have been allowed to make a decision of state on their own. I don’t think it was that Tywin, as regent, had authority over Joffrey. Just that Joffrey obeyed his grandfather. Not hard to imagine, given Tywin’s forceful personality. (And remind me; wasn’t the order to behead Ned Stark before Tywin showed up?) ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-08-hardhome-5-31-15-show-discussion/721309/193 "2015-06-03T00:12:59Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > (And remind me; wasn’t the order to behead Ned Stark before Tywin showed up?) Long before. Pure Joffrey. Even Cersei wouldn’t have had him executed. ---
**Author:** ![LawMonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@LawMonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LawMonkey)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-08-hardhome-5-31-15-show-discussion/721309/194 "2015-06-03T00:14:24Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > The problem is that if Cersei confesses to _everything_ Tommen’s claim to the Iron Throne is completely invalided which is very bad news for the Lannisters; especially given that they’re bankrupt. FWIW, I’m not 100% sure Cersei’s on the hook for acts w/ Jaime (yet). She also got up to some naughty business w/ Lancel, because apparently she is Into Incest generally at least as much as Jaime specifically. So he can only testify directly to that, so far as sexytimes go. > [@](#): > > It’s a little vague how exactly a regency works in Westeros. Despite being underage Joffrey was able to order all sorts of things against his regent’s wishes (like Ned’s beheading) I’m also not sure that Joffrey was subject to a regency, or provided that he was, I think he came of age and into his own fairly early in the course of the show. (Tommen, on the other hand, I’m pretty sure was and maybe still is? This show is confusing.) ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-08-hardhome-5-31-15-show-discussion/721309/195 "2015-06-03T00:15:40Z")
> [@LouLou7](#): > > When Arya first encounters Jaquen, he is a captive in a traveling jail wagon with some other common criminals, and apparently he can’t escape from the wagon. So, not so much with the supernatural stuff at that point, if he got himself captured, couldn’t get out of the cell wagon, and needs a little girl to rescue him. 😕 What have we seen that leads us to believe he should be able to do it without help? ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-08-hardhome-5-31-15-show-discussion/721309/196 "2015-06-03T00:21:34Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > There’s no reason to think they WERE her own kids. We’d seen her put her own kids on a boat earlier, and as far as we know all the boats got out to the ships just fine. > > It’s possible that she had other children who had vanished years earlier and now had returned in zombie form. More plausible is that they were kids of friends of hers, or maybe her own childhood friends who had been in zombie form for years. > > Most plausibly, she just was too freaked out by the sight of zombified children to keep fighting. I assumed it was her dead sister, the one she repeatedly referenced during the parley. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-08-hardhome-5-31-15-show-discussion/721309/197 "2015-06-03T00:50:51Z")
> [@LawMonkey](#): > > …I’m also not sure that Joffrey was subject to a regency, or provided that he was, I think he came of age and into his own fairly early in the course of the show. (Tommen, on the other hand, I’m pretty sure was and maybe still is? This show is confusing.) Cersei repeatedly referred to herself as Queen Regent, but you’re right; it does look like he came of age before he died. He still spent his entire reign with his grandfather/Hand of the King pulling the strings. > [@DigitalC](#): > > She doesn’t need to confess to everything, just to what Lancel claimed. The incest charge comes from sleeping with him. The sparrows might be crazy fundies but every charge they’ve raised came from direct evidence, not rumors. Good point. I don’t think it was clear until now that first cousins coupling was considered incest in Westeros (or that it was as severe as brother/sister). I wonder were exactly the Faith draws the line, considering that the vast majority of marriages in Westeros probably involve close cousins of some degree. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-08-hardhome-5-31-15-show-discussion/721309/198 "2015-06-03T01:23:33Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > I don’t think it was clear until now that first cousins coupling was considered incest in Westeros (or that it was as severe as brother/sister). And of course regardless of whether it was incest by Westeros custom, it was _certainly_ adultery. Even if first cousins got a pass she’d still have to deal with that charge. > [@](#): > > I wonder were exactly the Faith draws the line, considering that the vast majority of marriages in Westeros probably involve close cousins of some degree. In medieval Europe you had to have anywhere from four to seven degrees of seperation ( depending on the period ) and “blood ties” could be created by marriage or even just affairs. This last problem was supposedly one of the issues surrounding Richard I’s rejection of Princess Alix of France, due to rumours of her being intimate with his father Henry II. Of course as you rose up the ranks of nobility finding someone of sufficiently acceptable station who was that many degrees removed could be a tough problem, hence the incessant requests for Papal dispensations. Also the incessant anullments of unwanted spouses ( inevitably female ) when a marriage became inconvenient. One doubts Westeros is as touchy, what with the example set of the Targaryens playing footsie with their siblings. But it may well be for the common folk even second or third cousins might be considered mildly scandalous. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-08-hardhome-5-31-15-show-discussion/721309/199 "2015-06-03T01:56:31Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > Speaking of the necromancy magic, I remember something from S2 about the dragons waking up introduced more magic into the world. Or maybe it’s that magic is returning, so the dragons could wake up more easily. I wonder if all magic things push each other into a positive feedback loop, or if there’s some independent cycle, maybe related to the winters. Cool… er, cold theory! ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-08-hardhome-5-31-15-show-discussion/721309/200 "2015-06-03T02:00:05Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > What have we seen that leads us to believe he should be able to do it without help? Nothing, but **LouLou7** was responding to the suggestion above that Jaqen himself is the Many-Faced God. If he were, then (presumably) a locked door wouldn’t have been much of a problem. So far as I can tell, Jaqen is just one of many Faceless Men, distinguished mostly by the fact that he’s taken an interest in Arya. Then again, do we even have any way of knowing that this Jaqen is the same Jaqen she met in Westeros, and not another one wearing the same face? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-08-hardhome-5-31-15-show-discussion/721309.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-08-hardhome-5-31-15-show-discussion/721309.md?page=11)