# Game of Thrones 5.08 "Hardhome" 5/31/15 \[Show discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 1, 2015, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-08-hardhome-5-31-15-show-discussion/721309 "2015-06-01T02:12:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-08-hardhome-5-31-15-show-discussion/721309/161 "2015-06-02T18:16:04Z")
> [@Shakester](#): > > In the previous episode, Hardhome was described as a fishing village, and it was stated that the Wildlings had retreated there after the attack on Castle Black. > > So the wall was intended to defend a _much smaller_ population from outside threats. The majority of the Wildlings were forced to camp outside the walls, because there wasn’t room for them inside the walls. So when the worst case scenario hit them, they were shit out of luck. > > ETA: Semi-Ninjaed, naturally. I don’t think this is a spoiler because it came form the show about shooting the various locations, not the books, but just in case: They always called it “the fishing village”. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-08-hardhome-5-31-15-show-discussion/721309/162 "2015-06-02T18:17:50Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Jon had several swords at the beginning of the fight. The White Walker shattered them all, until he unsheathed his Valyrian sword, then the White Walker shattered instead. I can only assume he was keeping his best weapon for last. And the lesser swords were doing just fine against the zombies, it was the White Walker at the end who destroyed them. Umm, not quite. The Valyrian sword got knocked out of his hands and he picked up a couple replacement weapons, then found his Valyrian sword again, just in time. ---
**Author:** ![Wile\_E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c37758/32.png) [@Wile\_E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wile_E)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-08-hardhome-5-31-15-show-discussion/721309/163 "2015-06-02T18:21:40Z")
I don’t remember exactly how it happened but I think Jon lost his sword in the fight outside the tent and just grabbed another. when the WW shattered that sword he made his way outside to get his sword. I don’t think he knew it would work the way it did on the WW, he just knew it was a better sword. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-08-hardhome-5-31-15-show-discussion/721309/164 "2015-06-02T18:53:01Z")
> [@troub](#): > > …I was just browsing the Wikipedia on necromancy, and interestingly enough the “Early and High Middle Ages” sections mentions Norse mythology (not surprising), and several examples of such things as a witch-princess who would raise her dead soldiers in battle to keep fighting, and particularly interesting mentions of Odin. > > Yule/winter/season…sounds familiar. And further cursory perusal finds an even more tempting rabbit-hole to go down: Odin-\>“Fimbulvetr”, the “Mighty Winter” that immediately precedes Ragnorak-\>Ragnorak (great battle that is basically the destruction and rebirth of the world)… Cool stuff - thanks! > [@brewha](#): > > …And, while I’m OK with the Giant lumbering out to sea - He could have given the boats he passed a nice shove in the right direction. Damn selfish giants! Yeah. And how is he going to get into a ship? I think he’d capsize just about any that he could reach across and climb into. Otherwise he’s going to be hanging onto the stern, cold and waterlogged, kicking all the way back down south. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Umm, not quite. The Valyrian sword got knocked out of his hands and he picked up a couple replacement weapons, then found his Valyrian sword again, just in time. That’s how it looked to me, too. ---
**Author:** ![StarvingButStrong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/starvingbutstrong/32/335_2.png) [@StarvingButStrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StarvingButStrong)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-08-hardhome-5-31-15-show-discussion/721309/165 "2015-06-02T19:03:22Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Jon had several swords at the beginning of the fight. The White Walker shattered them all, until he unsheathed his Valyrian sword, then the White Walker shattered instead. I can only assume he was keeping his best weapon for last. And the lesser swords were doing just fine against the zombies, it was the White Walker at the end who destroyed them. Ah, thank you! But was having multiple swords in a battle an ordinary thing? Seems it would be awkward to be wearing multiple swords/sheaths. Though I can grabbing up one from a fallen warrior after your own is destroyed. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-08-hardhome-5-31-15-show-discussion/721309/166 "2015-06-02T19:59:26Z")
He didn’t have multiple swords, he had his sword but it got knocked away when the white walker slapped him around. ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-08-hardhome-5-31-15-show-discussion/721309/167 "2015-06-02T20:00:31Z")
> [@brewha](#): > > I watched the final battle scene twice, and am trying to figure out what is going on geographically. > > There’s a fence and a gate. Why is it there? What does it enclose? > > Is it around the city? Why is is open to the water? If I were going to fortify my town, I wouldn’t want a clear shot in from the water. But, the building where they met and lost the dragon glass was on the “safe” side of the fence, right? And Jon ran right to it from the water. > > Why are there thousands of wildlings milling about out side the fence. Obviously, they are outside of the fence since they were on the wrong side of the latch. So, there’s a fence that goes out and stops at the water? > > Could someone draw me a map here? The fort is a harbor with water on one side, a plateau on another side and a wall between the plateau and the water enclosing the fort. The plateau extends further and between it and the wall is a plain. What appeared to be thunder and an avalanche was the White Walker army throwing themselves off the top of the plateau across the plain. They recover and then run across the plain. The Wildlings were in the process of evacuating so some were inside and some were outside. The Gate was closed and the ones outside were killed, then the WW army attacked the gates. Further, more moved across the plateau and dropped down within the walled area. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-08-hardhome-5-31-15-show-discussion/721309/168 "2015-06-02T20:09:53Z")
I haven’t read any of the books, and know only what I’ve seen on the TV show about the Valyrian mythology. But… is the legend not that Valyrian steel was forged by fire breathing dragons? Is THAT why the steel would have the same effect as dragonstone? IF so… could Dany’s dragons be the key to forging new weapons against the Walkers? ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-08-hardhome-5-31-15-show-discussion/721309/169 "2015-06-02T20:11:27Z")
Speaking of the necromancy magic, I remember something from S2 about the dragons waking up introduced more magic into the world. Or maybe it’s that magic is returning, so the dragons could wake up more easily. I wonder if all magic things push each other into a positive feedback loop, or if there’s some independent cycle, maybe related to the winters. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-08-hardhome-5-31-15-show-discussion/721309/170 "2015-06-02T20:19:46Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > I haven’t read any of the books, and know only what I’ve seen on the TV show about the Valyrian mythology. > > But… is the legend not that Valyrian steel was forged by fire breathing dragons? Is THAT why the steel would have the same effect as dragonstone? > > IF so… could Dany’s dragons be the key to forging new weapons against the Walkers? It is certainly possible, but it begs the question of why use the dragon to make weapons to fight the walkers when you can use the dragons to directly breathe fire on them from above. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-08-hardhome-5-31-15-show-discussion/721309/171 "2015-06-02T20:42:39Z")
It’s so nice to see things (plotwise) headed in a certain direction, actually _get_ there. Tyrion meeting Dany, specifically. An awesome combination. [I know I’m not the only one, and don’t mean this as arrogantly as it sounds, but it seems that a Dany & The Dragons vs White Walkers climax has been inevitable since the end of Season 1. Doesn’t make it any less eagerly anticipated.] So the Faceless Men use their supernatural powers to knock off insurance cheats? Seems a bit beneath them. Thanks to watching with subtitles, we know that the giant’s name was Wun Wun. I’m so happy he didn’t get turned into a giant wight (presumably…we didn’t see him reaching the ships). I suspect that killing the White King will call all the wights to collapse, in much the manner that unmaking the One Ring caused the Nazgul to de-wraithify. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-08-hardhome-5-31-15-show-discussion/721309/172 "2015-06-02T20:54:37Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > So the Faceless Men use their supernatural powers to knock off insurance cheats? Seems a bit beneath them. Remember that they’re knocking off an insurance cheat as a training mission. I’m sure they generally do more important stuff, but you don’t want to send an untrained teen to kill a mafia don. > [@DigitalC](#): > > It is certainly possible, but it begs the question of why use the dragon to make weapons to fight the walkers when you can use the dragons to directly breathe fire on them from above. Because a dragon can only be in one place at a time? Why wouldn’t you use downtime to create weapons that can be widely distributed to fight the enemy? ---
**Author:** ![troub](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troub/32/14802_2.png) [@troub](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/troub)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-08-hardhome-5-31-15-show-discussion/721309/173 "2015-06-02T21:01:34Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > So the Faceless Men use their supernatural powers to knock off insurance cheats? Seems a bit beneath them. I’m pretty sure they’ll kill anybody that somebody pays them to kill. Payment could be some kind of favor or deed (like when Arya saved Jaqen from the cage) or probably straight-up money, too, or a “gift” of cash to the Many Faced God. Remember, Jaqen didn’t particularly care _who_ he killed for Arya, just three names, any three names. He had some kind of issue with the logistics of Tywin, IIRC, and didn’t care for being named himself, but other than that I don’t think the “ethics” of the hits mattered one bit. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-08-hardhome-5-31-15-show-discussion/721309/174 "2015-06-02T21:06:17Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Just gotta say I love the nickname for Jon Snow - King Crow > [@John\_Mace](#): > > I like how, at the end, the boat that Jon Snow was in kept moving out to sea even though no one was rowing. Jon Snow King Crow Makes boats go. (No need to row!) > [@jsc1953](#): > > So the Faceless Men use their supernatural powers to knock off insurance cheats? Seems a bit beneath them. … > [@Lobohan](#): > > Remember that they’re knocking off an insurance cheat as a training mission. I’m sure they generally do more important stuff, but you don’t want to send an untrained teen to kill a mafia don. I’m sure that the writers appreciate the fans’ attempts to explain plot developments that make little sense, but: this really does make little sense. As previously mentioned in the thread, if an insurance provider fails to pay on legitimate claims, word would spread and he would soon be out of business. Why hire the Faceless Men in that case? Pure vindictiveness? Is that what the FM exist to deliver? And if the woman-who-hired-the-Faceless-Men’s husband had been trying to cheat the insurance-provider, who rightfully denied the claim, then the Faceless Men would be killing an honest businessman. Are the FM merely assassins-for-hire? Why, then, all the religious trappings and ritual? It’s all rather fuzzy and not well thought-out. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-08-hardhome-5-31-15-show-discussion/721309/175 "2015-06-02T21:09:14Z")
Was it real then, I thought it was hypothetical? ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-08-hardhome-5-31-15-show-discussion/721309/176 "2015-06-02T21:20:07Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > Was it real then, I thought it was hypothetical? It’s hard to tell, with the Faceless Men’s unusual use of syntax. Everything is in the future pluperfect tense. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-08-hardhome-5-31-15-show-discussion/721309/177 "2015-06-02T21:22:29Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > I’m sure that the writers appreciate the fans’ attempts to explain plot developments that make little sense, but: this really does make little sense. > > As previously mentioned in the thread, if an insurance provider fails to pay on legitimate claims, word would spread and he would soon be out of business. Why hire the Faceless Men in that case? Pure vindictiveness? Is that what the FM exist to deliver? That’s goofy. There isn’t some magic mechanism that an existing business gets destroyed by one bad Yelp review. First off, they’re in a patriarchal society, and maybe no one gives a fuck what the wife says. Second off, maybe the broker is stretching some element of the contract, and the woman has no standing to bring whatever legal action is possible in Bravos. Maybe, specifically because the woman is of shady character or reputation, or weak, is why the broker thought he didn’t have to pay. Maybe the broker pays everything else, but this was genuinely a freak accident, and he didn’t have the capital to swing the payout. So he told the lady to fuck off. The invisible hand of the market doesn’t work every time. > [@](#): > > And if the woman-who-hired-the-Faceless-Men’s husband had been trying to cheat the insurance-provider, who rightfully denied the claim, then the Faceless Men would be killing an honest businessman. Are the FM merely assassins-for-hire? Why, then, all the religious trappings and ritual? > > It’s all rather fuzzy and not well thought-out. I’d assume that the faceless men check into their claims. Or that lying to them is very dangerous. It’s not needlessly fuzzy at all, you’re just expecting to be explicitly told every detail. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-08-hardhome-5-31-15-show-discussion/721309/178 "2015-06-02T21:33:54Z")
> [@StarvingButStrong](#): > > Ah, thank you! But was having multiple swords in a battle an ordinary thing? Seems it would be awkward to be wearing multiple swords/sheaths. > > Though I can grabbing up one from a fallen warrior after your own is destroyed. Already answered, but I’ll give you the play by play to help clarify: Jon didn’t fight the White Walker on the battlefield. The WW entered the main lodge, away from the fighting. This was the little hut where the leaders met before the undead showed up. This is also the hut where Jon’s gift of a bag of obsidian daggers was left. When the fighting started everyone ran out of the hut to see what was what, so it was left empty. The hut lights on fire so Jon and a red shirt go to check it out, then they see the WW. The WW kills the red shirt and then turns to Jon. Jon is armed with only his normal sword, the Valerian steel one. The WW knocks it out of his hand so hard it flies all the way outside the hut. Jon then tries to find the bag of dragon glass but since he’s being actively attacked by the WW he keeps picking up randomly discarded swords laying around. The bag of dragon glass turns out to be buried underneath rubble, unreachable, so after shattering a couple normal swords Jon finally retrieves his Valerian steel sword outside and kills the WW in full view of everyone. It may be worth mentioning that Jon had no idea his Valerian sword could kill a WW. His main focus was finding the bag of dragon glass, as that was the only weapon he knew would work. He was surprised as anyone that his sword works too; he only used it out of desperation and instinct. PS: Firefox natively recognizes “Valerian” as proper but “valerian” as incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-08-hardhome-5-31-15-show-discussion/721309/179 "2015-06-02T21:36:04Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Are the FM merely assassins-for-hire? Why, then, all the religious trappings and ritual? The religious part no doubt powers their supernatural face-changing ability. If their god is death, then being run of the mill assassins for hire seems like a pretty perfect business to be in. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-08-hardhome-5-31-15-show-discussion/721309/180 "2015-06-02T21:42:44Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > That’s goofy. There isn’t some magic mechanism that an existing business gets destroyed by one bad Yelp review. First off, they’re in a patriarchal society, and maybe no one gives a fuck what the wife says. Second off, maybe the broker is stretching some element of the contract, and the woman has no standing to bring whatever legal action is possible in Bravos. Maybe, specifically because the woman is of shady character or reputation, or weak, is why the broker thought he didn’t have to pay. > > Maybe the broker pays everything else, but this was genuinely a freak accident, and he didn’t have the capital to swing the payout. So he told the lady to fuck off. The invisible hand of the market doesn’t work every time. > > I’d assume that the faceless men check into their claims. Or that lying to them is very dangerous. It’s not needlessly fuzzy at all, you’re just expecting to be explicitly told every detail. Ok, can you explain what the issue was with the guy being told NO by “the Gambler” and then being dragged off by his goons? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-08-hardhome-5-31-15-show-discussion/721309.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-08-hardhome-5-31-15-show-discussion/721309.md?page=10)