# Game of Thrones 5.09 "The Dance of Dragons" 6/7/15 \[Show Discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 7, 2015, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922 "2015-06-07T21:44:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/201 "2015-06-08T22:11:39Z")
> [@Morbo](#): > > After lingering close-ups of Ser Jorah holding Dany’s hand, then Dany holding Missandei’s hand, they both have greyscale now, right? > > I’m guessing Dany will survive the greyscale because of her fireproofing or whatever, but Missandei will not. Yeah, that was kinda a dick move, unless Greyscale doesnt work like that. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/202 "2015-06-08T22:12:33Z")
> [@BlackKnight](#): > > What, you’ve never been bored on a weekend and summoned a demon? > > But seriously, I just meant that in many real-world stories about demons there is a bargain or pact that benefits someone in a tangible way but comes at a horrible cost. I have no idea if demons exist in the world of the show; if they do, I have no particular knowledge how they work. My point was, if we can’t take fictional claims about the nature of the Lord of Light at face value, why should we take fictional claims about the nature of demons at face value? It all made up, so if you suspend disbelief for one, you has to suspend disbelief for the other. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/203 "2015-06-08T22:14:30Z")
> [@Morbo](#): > > After lingering close-ups of Ser Jorah holding Dany’s hand, then Dany holding Missandei’s hand, they both have greyscale now, right? > > I’m guessing Dany will survive the greyscale because of her fireproofing or whatever, but Missandei will not. Umm… no. For one thing, Jorah had it on his wrist and not his hand. The shot of him offering her his hand was there for symbolic effect - that is, to show him winning back her trust. For another thing, he offered her his _right_ hand, and the infection was shown previously as being on his _left_ wrist, which was covered up by his armor anyway. And most importantly, it’s not even clear that it’s really contagious in people who haven’t become full-blown stonemen, because in this very same episode Stannis kisses Shireen on the forehead dangerously close if not on top of the infected tissue on her face, and doesn’t seem to be concerned about it. My theory is that contracting it through touch is probably only likely once the disease has progressed to its late stages (i.e. Stone Man style), and in the earlier stages the risk is lesser, if there is a risk at all. ETA: and to add to that theory, if it was so incredibly contagious even in its early stages it wouldn’t make sense that they’d even keep infected people around at all. Far too risky just being near them; they’d need to be exiled, quarantined, or killed pretty much right away. But as it is, people who are infected do get exiled but not until the disease has consumed most or all of their bodies. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/204 "2015-06-08T22:18:07Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > And most importantly, it’s not even clear that it’s really contagious in people who haven’t become full-blown stonemen, because in this very same episode Stannis kisses Shireen on the forehead dangerously close if not on top of the infected tissue on her face, and doesn’t seem to be concerned about it. Shereen has been cured. Her disfigurement is just a scar-like remnant. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/205 "2015-06-08T22:20:32Z")
Are the Dorne scenes filmed in Morocco? I just hope that _Iphigenia at Aspen_ was successful and allows them to overrun the Ramseys. I’d hate to think of Melisandre going “Oops! Guess it doesn’t work with girls”. Did Arya chicken out on poisoning the thin man or just get distracted by Meryn Brant? Since we saw Sansa steal the shank this season, I’m guessing she’ll use it in the season finale. I just hope she’s not pregnant. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/206 "2015-06-08T22:25:00Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > … If it was the act of a real world religious fanatic, sure, unforgivable. But in this fantasy world where gods actually exist, that changes the equation. … The problem is that _this has not been established to be the belief and/or experience of most people in the GoT world._ All the wise nods over how _Stannis Had To Make The Tough Decision_ is, frankly, ridiculous. No character in the show had any reason to actually believe that human sacrifice inevitably results in goodies or good luck or CARE packages from the deity or any other thing that would justify said-human-sacrifice as being a Smart Move. All that’s been set up in HBO’s _Game of Thrones_ is a faux-medieval world that had virtually no magic in it until very recently–magic that’s been visible to only a very few. The soldiers in that camp might “have faith” in some religion to which they’ve been introduced. But what they would NOT have plausibly had, is any _expectation_ that burning a little kid alive would be the key to a wonderful new world of success in battle or in finding provisions. _No foundation for such a belief has been presented in this television show_. > [@BlackKnight](#): > > I disagree that we have proof that the Lord of Light is real. > We have proof that certain phenomenon occur and that some people _believe_ that these phenomenon come from the Lord of Light. But that hardly means their beliefs are correct. I mean, we have football players in real life who claim that God helped them make a touchdown. I think it’s likely that their training and athleticism had more to do with it, but that doesn’t stop them from believing that they couldn’t have done it without supernatural help. > We know that the supernatural has a place in Westeros, but that doesn’t mean we truly understand what it is or how it work. Was the shadow baby the work of the Lord of Light? Was it some other form of magic? Was it the work of a god, but a different god? > There’s also the issue that even if the Lord of Light is real, it doesn’t follow that anyone should worship him. We’ve seen horrible things done in the name of the Lord of Light. Maybe his goal is to cause as much suffering as he can - protecting those who are agents of chaos or suffering, and destroying those who are agents of calm and peace. (I suddenly recall another Light Bringer, from the Christian tradition.) So even if Stannis knew that the Lord of Light was real, he had no reason for believing that the Lord was _just_. Stannis very well could be doing the work of a demon or devil. Yes, he’s apparently getting what he wants out of the deal, but that’s how demons often work. You get what you think you want in exchange for what you really want (or need). > In conclusion, fuck Stannis. Well-said. I agree with all of this. > [@Deeg](#): > > Shireen’s character is lifted right out of a Sparks book, for the reasons I listed above. The only thing that would have made her character more pathetically empathetic would be if she carried fluffy cute kittens to the pyre. > > Another thing that bothered me: GoT has always had an element of torture porn and now it’s included the torture and sacrifice/murder of a girl. Couldn’t Stannis have at least given her a drug so she wouldn’t feel the pain? As somebody already said it feels like Martin (and HBO) is resorting to upping the cruelty to keep the emotions raw. It’s substituting smart writing with cheap horror. > > I originally hated Ned’s execution–it took me a while to believe that he really was dead–but I can see how his death made the story more compelling. Then came Robb and Cat and Ygritte, among others. At this point it seems like Martin doesn’t know what else to do; when he wants to create a rise out of the reader/viewer he inserts a Sparks-like character and then kills them off with suffering. Davos and Jon are now the most empathetic characters in Westeros–surely they are about to be whacked in horrible ways, probably to be followed by Sam. Martin’s gone to that well too many times. I think you’ve nailed it. The death of Shireen was the most blatantly-manipulative scene shown on television in, perhaps, decades. Just deplorable. At this point, I’m watching in awe of show-fans’ acceptance of bad writing–and it’s amazing to watch it get worse every week. Really, Daenerys takes over a city filled with angry, discontented citizens who’ve already proven to be both violent and organized, and then goes to a stadium filled with hundreds (thousands?) with only a couple of dozen guards? _Really??_ (We really do need a better ‘rolls eyes’ smiley. The present one looks way too cheerful.) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/207 "2015-06-08T22:32:13Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > The problem is that _this has not been established to be the belief and/or experience of most people in the GoT world._ > > All the wise nods over how _Stannis Had To Make The Tough Decision_ is, frankly, ridiculous. No character in the show had any reason to actually believe that human sacrifice inevitably results in goodies or good luck or CARE packages from the deity or any other thing that would justify said-human-sacrifice as being a Smart Move. > > All that’s been set up in HBO’s _Game of Thrones_ is a faux-medieval world that had virtually no magic in it until very recently–magic that’s been visible to only a very few. The soldiers in that camp might “have faith” in some religion to which they’ve been introduced. > > But what they would NOT have plausibly had, is any _expectation_ that burning a little kid alive would be the key to a wonderful new world of success in battle or in finding provisions. _No foundation for such a belief has been presented in this television show_. “Most people” no. Well, except that as in Medieval Europe “most people” believed in G-d and Miracles. But _Stannis_ has seen and participated in deific magic. Several times. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/208 "2015-06-08T22:33:11Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Did Arya chicken out on poisoning the thin man or just get distracted by Meryn Brant? I think she got distracted, and may eventually get punished for it by her trainer. > [@](#): > > Since we saw Sansa steal the shank this season, I’m guessing she’ll use it in the season finale. I just hope she’s not pregnant. Chekhov’s Shank? ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/209 "2015-06-08T22:34:28Z")
I don’t know why he came to the wall from the North side. However, we did see Ser Alliser open the gate for Jon Snow - he didn’t have to and would probably stayed (acting) Lord Commander had he not. To me that’s a huge respect for the chain-of-command. Especially since Ser Alliser thinks Jon Snow is going to get everyone killed. ---
**Author:** ![G0sp3l](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c68b51/32.png) [@G0sp3l](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G0sp3l)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/210 "2015-06-08T22:38:45Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > I believe you are using book information here, please don’t do so in the show-only threads. If that’s true I apologize, that was not my intent. I thought it had been mentioned in an earlier season. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/211 "2015-06-08T22:38:56Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > The problem is that _this has not been established to be the belief and/or experience of most people in the GoT world._ > > All the wise nods over how _Stannis Had To Make The Tough Decision_ is, frankly, ridiculous. No character in the show had any reason to actually believe that human sacrifice inevitably results in goodies or good luck or CARE packages from the deity or any other thing that would justify said-human-sacrifice as being a Smart Move. > > All that’s been set up in HBO’s _Game of Thrones_ is a faux-medieval world that had virtually no magic in it until very recently–magic that’s been visible to only a very few. The soldiers in that camp might “have faith” in some religion to which they’ve been introduced. > > But what they would NOT have plausibly had, is any _expectation_ that burning a little kid alive would be the key to a wonderful new world of success in battle or in finding provisions. _No foundation for such a belief has been presented in this television show_. > > Well-said. I agree with all of this. > > (We really do need a better ‘rolls eyes’ smiley. The present one looks way too cheerful.) Half those troops are fanatics or to cowed to disagree with the guy who just hanged some of his own troops. The other half are Braavos mercy…I’m sure they’ve seen worse. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/212 "2015-06-08T22:39:29Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Well, except that as in Medieval Europe “most people” believed in G-d and Miracles. Can you cite any accounts of human sacrifice used in Medieval Europe as a means of dealing with starvation and/or cold? > [@DrDeth](#): > > But _Stannis_ has seen and participated in deific magic. Several times. Why would all those soldiers care? What they see is a man burning his daughter alive. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/213 "2015-06-08T22:44:09Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Can you cite any accounts of human sacrifice used in Medieval Europe as a means of dealing with starvation and/or cold? > > Why would all those soldiers care? What they see is a man burning his daughter alive. No, but what does that have to do with anything? They did burn heretics and such, however, on faith based reasons. Cause they are cold, and starving and gonna be dead real soon. And now they have Hope. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/214 "2015-06-08T22:47:40Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Why would all those soldiers care? What they see is a man burning his daughter alive. What are you even talking about? Who cares what the men think? The discussion you so valiantly white-knighted in to refute was the justification (or lack thereof) for Stannis. Not his men. See that whole giant post you vomitted out earlier this page in response to a snippet of my post? I was talking about Stannis. Not his men. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/215 "2015-06-08T22:49:07Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > No, he isn’t. I’ve read the books, and except for a couple things, the show is now past the books. Nobody apart the author and the show makers know what is going to happen to Stannis, at this point. Us book readers didn’t even know Shoreen would die, for instance. Has the name “Azor Ahai” ever been used in the show? ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/216 "2015-06-08T22:49:31Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > I think she got distracted, and may eventually get punished for it by her trainer. I was expecting Jaquen to slap her when she said “He wasn’t hungry”. (I still think “Truth or Slap” would be a great spin-off game show.) ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/217 "2015-06-08T22:55:03Z")
I feel like Jacquen knew exactly what happened with Arya. Maybe he even knew Meren would be arriving on the docks at the time on that day and specifically sent Arya on that job to see him. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/218 "2015-06-08T23:00:28Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > The problem is that _this has not been established to be the belief and/or experience of most people in the GoT world._ > > … > > But what they would NOT have plausibly had, is any _expectation_ that burning a little kid alive would be the key to a wonderful new world of success in battle or in finding provisions. _No foundation for such a belief has been presented in this television show_. So what? Stannis clearly believes, and has reason to believe. Some of his followers (as opposed to mercenaries) are presumably true believers as well. The rest of his mercenaries may or may not believe, but they are smart enough to know that they’re desparate and about to starve or freeze to death. Should they be so outraged at a foreign king who they don’t follow killing his disfigured daughter that they speak up and cause a mutiny right in the middle of a massive crisis, rather than just keeping their cool and praying to whatever gods they believed in that this sacrifice works, because if it doesn’t, they’re fucked? Like I said, one of two things will happen: (1) The sacrifice will work, and people will start to believe, or at least respect Stannis for having made a terrible choice (2) The sacrifice won’t work, and they’ll all die > [@](#): > > I think you’ve nailed it. The death of Shireen was the most blatantly-manipulative scene shown on television in, perhaps, decades. Just deplorable. I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. What does the word “manipulative” even mean in that context? Isn’t the whole point of any work of art to manipulate emotions? How do you know that this powerfully emotional scene was “manipulative” as opposed to just being powerfully emotional? (I agree, by the way, that I’d like some more info about why Dany ended up with so few bodyguards in a dangerous situation. Was there some assurance she and her guards received that everyone sitting near them would be searched and checked, and then whoever was supposed to be doing the checking was corrupted, or something?) ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/219 "2015-06-08T23:01:53Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > What are you even talking about? Who cares what the men think? The discussion you so valiantly white-knighted in to refute was the justification (or lack thereof) for Stannis. Not his men. > See that whole giant post you vomitted out earlier this page in response to a snippet of my post? I was talking about Stannis. Not his men. You’ve missed the point. It appears that you believe that the opinion of a leader held by the leader’s troops has no importance. Do you see this as true in general, or only in the world of GoT? ---
**Author:** ![by-tor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/by-tor/32/266_2.png) [@by-tor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/by-tor)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/220 "2015-06-08T23:07:30Z")
I wonder if Meryn Trant is on to Ayra (the most unsubtle assassin ever). He was definitely checking her out, more than once. Did he notice he was being followed and stared at with big, googly eyes? Does he remember who Ayra is? Or was he just sexually interested? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922.md?page=12)