# Game of Thrones 5.09 "The Dance of Dragons" 6/7/15 \[Show Discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 7, 2015, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922 "2015-06-07T21:44:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2015, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/321 "2015-06-10T19:11:36Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > I agree with part of this. The fact that Stannis got himself into a situation where he was faced with only two possible choices, both of them horrible, reflects badly on him. On the other hand, I think it’s a bit facile to say that there’s always a third choice. No, sometimes there isn’t. Robb Stark sacrificed 1000 men in a diversionary battle in order to win a major military victory and capture Jaime Lannister. Each of those 1000 men was someone’s beloved son or husband. They had all sworn allegiance to Robb and he had sworn to protect them. Should he have refused to make that sacrifice, and kept looking for a better alternative? > > It’s also worth pointing out that the reason Stannis is up north in the first place is that he sailed way the hell out of his way, far away from where the main struggle for power is going on, in order to protect a part of the realm which is vitally important but which no one cares about. And he did so at Melisandre’s urging. Whatever her motivations may be (and I agree that they’re murky from our perspective, although I think you may be overstating that case) they don’t simply seem to be “power at all costs”, as it’s hard to see the political advantage gained from defeating a bunch of wildlings. > Sure, and history is also full of people who did terrible things that DID end up being for the greater good, and people giving advice who ended up being judged kindly by history. > > I think that it’s easy to let our real-world prejudice affect our judgment of Melisandre. In the real world, we know that there is no magical God of Fire. So in the real world, we are certain that she would be a conman (con-woman?) of some sort. But Westeros operates by different rules, so there’s at least a fairly real possibility that she is sincere and well-intentioned. (And of course the possibility that she herself is sincere and well-intentioned, but misled.) > > I don’t think Stannis will be king. But I think you are being more absolute in your condemnation of both him and Melisandre than is deserved. > > Worth bringing up, by the way: we generally think of Davos as being a good guy and Melisandre as being shady or evil… but there’s a reasonable chance that if Stannis had ignored Davos’s advice and brought Melisandre along, he might have won the battle of blackwater. Granted, that would have involved killing Tyrion, who we like. But it would also have involved killing Cersei and Joffrey, who we hate. Point being, things are murky. Mel couldn’t handle a campfire out of control, how is she going to stop a nuclear wildfire explosion? ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2015, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/322 "2015-06-10T19:15:04Z")
> [@Morbo](#): > > I meant the shot of the hand-holding was an [unmotivated close-up](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/EbertsGlossaryOfMovieTerms). The director lingered on it, IMO, to show the greyscale being transferred. I’m not convinced I’m wrong about that, but if I am I’ll certainly own up to it. That would be odd, especially given everything else that was happening. It was to show how close they were. My first thought on seeing it was awww. My next thought was there must be an incredible amount of Dany/Missandei femslash. If I know the internet… ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2015, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/323 "2015-06-10T19:29:41Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > Mel couldn’t handle a campfire out of control, how is she going to stop a nuclear wildfire explosion? Beats me. We have very little idea of her strengths and weaknesses. But she can do magic, and she clearly has a connection with fire. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2015, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/324 "2015-06-10T20:15:06Z")
I didn’t bother following the exposition about greyscale but I notice it’s not developing on Jora, which I assume is the reason he keeps looking at it. What does it mean if it’s not developing? And, fwiw, I’m really not into this passing the infection idea. ---
**Author:** ![G0sp3l](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c68b51/32.png) [@G0sp3l](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G0sp3l)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2015, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/325 "2015-06-10T20:52:35Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > [snip] > > It’s also worth pointing out that the reason Stannis is up north in the first place is that he sailed way the hell out of his way, far away from where the main struggle for power is going on, in order to protect a part of the realm which is vitally important but which no one cares about. And he did so at Melisandre’s urging. Whatever her motivations may be (and I agree that they’re murky from our perspective, although I think you may be overstating that case) they don’t simply seem to be “power at all costs”, as it’s hard to see the political advantage gained from defeating a bunch of wildlings. > [/snip] > [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, he got into this deep shit by saving the World. > > And, fercrickiessake it’s a _fantasy_ world. With dragons who breathe fire no less. Stannis went to the wall at Davos’ urging. Whether Stannis knew about the raven from Castle Black, I can’t recall but Melisandre was already aware of the White Walkers. It was Davos telling Stannis to “save the realm and be king” instead of “be king and save the realm”. Stannis doesn’t give a crap about the people of the realm just the law saying he should be king. Melisandre simply changed tactics in manipulating Stannis when she saw a better option. [My speculations] Stannis wants to save the world because he thinks it will put him on the throne. He’s using the law and the White Walkers to further his ambitions. Ambitions, I think he only hid because there was no prior way for him to act on them without looking like the nobles he despises. ---
**Author:** ![oft\_wears\_hats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7993a0/32.png) [@oft\_wears\_hats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oft_wears_hats)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2015, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/326 "2015-06-10T21:01:47Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > Mel couldn’t handle a campfire out of control, how is she going to stop a nuclear wildfire explosion? > [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Beats me. We have very little idea of her strengths and weaknesses. But she can do magic, and she clearly has a connection with fire. I think **Dale Sams** is referring to how Melisandre was clearly awake and aware of the fires Ramsey caused, but she didn’t or couldn’t stop them. All we know is that she didn’t. She may not have done anything because she doesn’t have the ability, or because she actively chose not to. It wouldn’t surprise me if she decided to just sit back and let the fires happen to push Stannis towards sacrificing Shireen. > [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > I didn’t bother following the exposition about greyscale but I notice it’s not developing on Jora, which I assume is the reason he keeps looking at it. > > What does it mean if it’s not developing? > > And, fwiw, I’m really not into this passing the infection idea. AFAICT, it _is_ spreading. It started as a small patch and is slowly getting larger. Still, I seriously doubt that Jorah passed it onto Danaerys, because that would be stupidly out of character for him. Then again, I also expected him to stay far, far away from Mereen to avoid infecting her or her people, and I was wrong about that. I still think the transmission angle is a dead end, supported by **Rigamarole’s** observations upthread. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2015, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/327 "2015-06-10T22:10:23Z")
> [@G0sp3l](#): > > Stannis went to the wall at Davos’ urging. Whether Stannis knew about the raven from Castle Black, I can’t recall but Melisandre was already aware of the White Walkers. > > It was Davos telling Stannis to “save the realm and be king” instead of “be king and save the realm”. Stannis doesn’t give a crap about the people of the realm just the law saying he should be king. Melisandre simply changed tactics in manipulating Stannis when she saw a better option. > > [My speculations] > Stannis wants to save the world because he thinks it will put him on the throne. He’s using the law and the White Walkers to further his ambitions. Ambitions, I think he only hid because there was no prior way for him to act on them without looking like the nobles he despises. If Stannis’ ambitions were ONLY about being king, it would have been a LOT smarter for him to go straight to King’s Landing or Winterfell. A LOT smarter. Not buying it, in short. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2015, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/328 "2015-06-10T22:53:01Z")
Regarding the greyscale… It comes out of Valeria, the ancient home of dragons and the Targaryans. As a longshot, maybe greyscale is only fatal to normal people, and in someone like Daeneris it has a completely different effect? Maybe it will make her more powerful or something. That is just wild speculation. I don’t think Ser Jorah infected her. I suspect you probably have to touch the actual infected area to get it, ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2015, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/329 "2015-06-10T23:29:31Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > My mistake so far might have been to try to guess his nature on the basis of the monitheist or polytheist religions we’re familiar with, to try to place him on a good\<-----\> evil axis that is probably irrelevant to him. Maybe in this world what really matters is…Ice vs Fire. And maybe what humans must do is to keep a balance between both, lest they would be destroyed. That’s a fascinating point. It could very well be that the Lord of Light is the only hope against the white walkers, at least if your hope involves turning to deities. The Lord of Light clearly has power, or at least Melisandre does and attributes it to a god that doesn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2015, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/330 "2015-06-10T23:36:36Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > …Also, I don’t think any equivalent of heaven has been mentioned (or any other kind of afterlife, for that matter). Maybe I’m mistaken and it was (I suspect the faith of the seven has some equivalent),… There have been multiple references to Hell on the show, but other than that it’s really vague what the Faith (or anyone else’s) idea of an afterlife is. We know The Stranger is the aspect of the Godhead in charge of death, & the Silent Sisters are connected to him (as well as being in charge of dealing with corpses). Funerals among the nobility are really elaborate; the body is embalmed & displayed, various internal organs are removed & put in their own urns, the eyes are covered with stones pained to look like eyes, & at least in the North life sized statues are placed over the crypts (or the remains are somehow entombed inside the statues, I’m not sure). ---
**Author:** ![G0sp3l](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c68b51/32.png) [@G0sp3l](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G0sp3l)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2015, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/331 "2015-06-10T23:47:17Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > If Stannis’ ambitions were ONLY about being king, it would have been a LOT smarter for him to go straight to King’s Landing or Winterfell. A LOT smarter. Not buying it, in short. At which point? He never had enough manpower to take any region. The lesser lords only came to him when they had no viable options. The White Walkers are at the Wall. Does he intend to march north again? In the heart of winter? Or sacrifice the Night’s Watch and face the WWs when they are at Winterfell? The Boltons are not going to roll over, storming Winterfell will cost him numbers. Fighters that would be better used against the WWs. That is, of course, contingent on my not missing an important conversation somewhere. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2015, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/332 "2015-06-10T23:51:04Z")
Stannis can’t defeat the white walkers. It’ll take the entire kingdom’s resources and manpower to even have a hope of doing that. Either the warring parties need to have a truce(something which John Snow might have to impose or cajole out of them somehow), or someone is going to have to swoop in, take over, and force everyone onto the same page. Right now there are only two people who can do that: Dany Targaryan and Stannis Baratheon. And neither have the manpower to do THAT as yet either. So I’m really wondering if Bran is supposed to just save the day somehow. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2015, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/333 "2015-06-10T23:51:10Z")
> [@G0sp3l](#): > > At which point? He never had enough manpower to take any region. The lesser lords only came to him when they had no viable options. > > The White Walkers are at the Wall. Does he intend to march north again? In the heart of winter? Or sacrifice the Night’s Watch and face the WWs when they are at Winterfell? > > The Boltons are not going to roll over, storming Winterfell will cost him numbers. Fighters that would be better used against the WWs. > That is, of course, contingent on my not missing an important conversation somewhere. 🙂 But you’re missing the point. If Stannis sole desire was to become king at any cost, he never would have gone to the wall in the first place, and never would have risked his army to fight Mance Rayder. I’m not sure what he WOULD have done, and I’m not saying that he’s acting like a saint or a wise enlightened leader… but the charge that he’s purely ambitiously power-hungry just doesn’t stick. (There are characters who are clearly power-hungry… Littlefinger, for instance.) ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2015, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/334 "2015-06-10T23:52:42Z")
I don’t think he’s just power hungry either, but he did go to the wall to try to convince John Snow and the Watch to fight for him, and the wildlings to boot. He made a move to end the Nights Watch’s political neutrality, which was a pretty bold move for someone as much a stickler for law and tradition as Stannis is. ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/335 "2015-06-11T02:46:30Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > And when you have someone who can actually do miracles, then there’s no reason not to believe. I don’t understand this at all. Are you saying you’d believe literally _anything_ told to you by someone who performed magic? If someone raised the dead in front of me, I’d definitely be amazed, but that wouldn’t mean I’d blindly believe anything the dead-raiser told me. Why would I? I mean, I’ve had people in real life perform impressive physical tasks (albeit non-magical ones) and they told me they were able to do them because of their balance bracelet. The fact that someone can do X doesn’t mean they truly understand why and how they can do X. I don’t see how magic is any different. > [@DrDeth](#): > > (what priest brought back the dead?) What’s-his-name brought ol’ one-eye with the flaming sword back from the dead after he lost a trial by combat with the Hound. (I’m not so good at names sometimes.) He said he had done it multiple times (six? seven?) and a shocked Melissandra expressed disbelief that such a thing was even possible. It was one of the few times we’ve seen the Red Witch surprised. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/336 "2015-06-11T07:35:20Z")
Who was the guy that Arya recognized and that almost recognized her? ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/337 "2015-06-11T08:31:04Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Who was the guy that Arya recognized and that almost recognized her? [Meryn Trant](http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Meryn_Trant) (No spoilers on that page unless you read the “In the books” section at the bottom of the page.) ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/338 "2015-06-11T08:33:56Z")
> [@BlackKnight](#): > > What’s-his-name brought ol’ one-eye with the flaming sword back from the dead after he lost a trial by combat with the Hound. (I’m not so good at names sometimes.) **Thoros** of Myr ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/339 "2015-06-11T11:41:47Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Seriously, you think that the guys in today’s Academi (formerly Blackwater) would be indifferent to their commander burning his child alive, just because they want their paycheck? You don’t think that they’d have any reaction to their commander burning his child alive? They’d be basically ‘fine’ as long as they got that paycheck? > > Really? Dude, have you not been following the news for the last ten years? Blackwater is notorious for having remorselessly shot and murdered innocent civilians, including children. The massacres led to a serious diplomatic incident, protracted international news coverage, criminal prosecutions and convictions, and widespread condemnation by pretty much every journalist and commentator in existence. But they didn’t lead to any mass resignations on the part of Blackwater employees, who seemed happy to keep collecting their paycheques. I can respect the theory that the show’s writers want us to believe that the loyalty of Stannis’s soldiers has been shaken, though you’ve chosen a particularly poor real-world example to invoke in support of it. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/340 "2015-06-11T13:41:46Z")
> [@oft\_wears\_hats](#): > > AFAICT, it _is_ spreading. It started as a small patch and is slowly getting larger. You think so? If I get time I might look back and compare total squareage. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922.md?page=18)