# Game of Thrones 5.09 "The Dance of Dragons" 6/7/15 \[Show Discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 7, 2015, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922 "2015-06-07T21:44:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![StarvingButStrong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/starvingbutstrong/32/335_2.png) [@StarvingButStrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StarvingButStrong)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/101 "2015-06-08T14:13:09Z")
I don’t get the complaints that Stannis will have no heir. The guy is, what, maybe in his forties? And looks to be in good health. He has plenty of time to breed up some sons and raise them to ‘old enough to inherit’, especially in light of how young Tommen was when he was accepted as king. Yeah, Stannis has got a wife who may be past child-bearing age, and who apparently had a bunch of miscarriages before that. But as already pointed out, this is a dude that will do _whatever_ he thinks is right. One of the duties of a king is to secure an heir for the kindgon AND he has already killed relatives. Why wouldn’t he have his current wife beheaded (or whatever) to clear the way for a marriage to some new young probably fertile woman? And that’s a worst case possibility, assuming there’s no way under the Red God religion to divorce/annul Selyse, or maybe ship her off to some nunnery equivalent. Heck, he should marry a Frey daughter, they look to be plenty fertile. Or bed a half dozen of them and marry the one who gets pregnant first. I’d bet Lord Frey would happily go along with that. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/102 "2015-06-08T14:17:53Z")
Yeah, Stannis can have an heir if he wins a battle against an entrenched enemy in unfamiliar terrain, kills his wife and alienates her family and their allies, finds another family with an unmarried woman that’s willing to risk everything on a long shot for the throne, gets her pregnant, the child survives cold and starvation like conditions. Or he could have just not murdered his child. I suppose you win the throne first and then figure the rest out later. If he loses it’s not like Shireen lives anyway. Head meet spike. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/103 "2015-06-08T14:18:09Z")
> [@Garula](#): > > Regardless, fuck Stannis. What the hell is the _point_ of his war? A whole bunch of people die, maybe he rules few a few years, and now without an heir the kingdom probably falls to pieces again after he dies. Uh, the point is to become king i.e. to play the game of thrones. A whole bunch of people dying is part of it. Becoming king is a pretty frickin’ big deal. I don’t know if by saying “now” without an heir you mean to imply his daughter ever could have been an heir - she wasn’t, she was a girl (and with the greyscale to boot). But he’s still plenty young enough to sire more trueborn sons, which if his wife can’t provide, he can re-marry for. > [@Garula](#): > > Also, hypothetical counter factual: Suppose Danaerys had originally agreed to reopen the fighting pits, but on the condition that the fights would no longer be to the death. Would that have been an acceptable compromise? Dany’s a bit of a goody two-shoes but even she’s not _that_ much of a prude. Nobody would have gone along with that sissy crap. The Sons of the Harpy are already very clearly pissed at her for how she’s disrupted their way of life even with the pits as they are. So no, not acceptable. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/104 "2015-06-08T14:22:03Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Yeah, Stannis can have an heir if he wins a battle against an entrenched enemy in unfamiliar terrain, kills his wife and alienates her family and their allies, finds another family with an unmarried woman that’s willing to risk everything on a long shot for the throne, gets her pregnant, the child survives cold and starvation like conditions. > > Or he could have just not murdered his child. Again, his child was a girl - that’s not considered a proper heir to the throne. He needs a son. And his chances of sitting the Iron Throne besides, “finding an unmarried woman that’s willing to risk everything on a long shot for the throne” - are you kidding? This isn’t a modern world where people have their own lives and the luxury to make choices like that. The king could marry pretty much whoever he damn well pleases at the drop of a pin, and he’d find droves of young fertile girls more than willing (and more importantly, their families more than willing since most marriages in the Seven Kingdoms are, of course, arranged). Non-issue. ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/105 "2015-06-08T14:23:27Z")
I have to suspect people who are taken by surprise by Stannis’ actions… have been watching a completely different show than the rest of us. It’s completely in character. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/106 "2015-06-08T14:26:05Z")
> [@oft\_wears\_hats](#): > > I thought the Worst Thing was killing guests. Though I’m sure killing kin is not looked upon favorably. I think kinslaying is considered almost as bad as kingslaying. Probably not out of any sense of altruism, but because it fucks with the normal order of succession. [QUOTE=StarvingButStrong] But as already pointed out, this is a dude that will do _whatever_ he thinks is right. One of the duties of a king is to secure an heir for the kindgon AND he has already killed relatives. Why wouldn’t he have his current wife beheaded (or whatever) to clear the way for a marriage to some new young probably fertile woman? And that’s a worst case possibility, assuming there’s no way under the Red God religion to divorce/annul Selyse, or maybe ship her off to some nunnery equivalent. [quote] He probably doesn’t even need to do that. Both Stanis and Roose Bolton have established a precedent where a lord or king can simply rule one of his bastards legitimate and make them heir. It doesn’t have to be oldest male. > [@oft\_wears\_hats](#): > > Stannis clearly sent Davos away to prevent him from interfering, and Davos clearly smelled something fishy, but if he knew Stannis’ plans, he definitely would have risked everything to save her. On the same note, I think Stannis has lost Davos’ support forever now. I think it’s one thing to free Robert’s bastard. It’s quite another to snatch away the princess to what he views as the legitimate heir to the throne of Westeros in the middle of a blizzard deep in the North. Where could Davos go with her? ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/107 "2015-06-08T14:37:46Z")
I think the biggest irony is that going back to Castle Black and wintering there would have been the best possible course to take. Specially if he still held Dragonstone and its dragon glass deposits. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/108 "2015-06-08T14:41:36Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > I think the biggest irony is that going back to Castle Black and wintering there would have been the best possible course to take. Specially if he still held Dragonstone and its dragon glass deposits. In the GoT world winter lasts many _years_, not just a couple of months like our winter. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/109 "2015-06-08T14:42:52Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > In the GoT world winter lasts many _years_, not just a couple of months like our winter. I know this, he still should be at the wall to help with the real problem. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/110 "2015-06-08T15:00:59Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > I know this, he still should be at the wall to help with the real problem. The real problem is not going away obviously, what is in doubt however, is exactly when do the supernaturals make their move on the south. This could be next week, or it could still be several years off. The real solution though, is still south of the border. Jon can do a holding action , as long as there is an army of sorts coming up, and that is at least several months from kings landing, at the minimum. Roberts question to Cersei still stands, what is more powerful, one or five. And that was with the dothraki. Declan ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Lowry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sam\_Lowry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Lowry)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/111 "2015-06-08T15:06:02Z")
I thought the Stannis stuff was horrific but totally in character. I’m looking forward to the battle for Winterfell, and hope that Sansa is the one who comes out on top. > [@grude](#): > > Why were the SOTH randomly killing audience members? I thought they were fighting to get Dany and the gang out of Mereen and get slave masters back in power, but now they are just into killing? How are Tyrion and FriendZoned going to get away? Yeah, I was surprised by the seeming random killing that the Sons of the Harpy were doing. Also, it was great that Dany flew away, but Tyrion and Dario and the others didn’t seem too worried, although I would still think they were ripe targets. Also riding a dragon is an awesome show of power, but not the way to defeat the SOTH, since they can still hide out amongst innocents. I’m guessing that Dany’s now dead future husband was never working with the Sons of the Harpy, and he was targeted because he was compromising with her, and the Sons will never be happy until the invading force is dead or thrown out. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/112 "2015-06-08T15:07:29Z")
> [@Declan](#): > > The real problem is not going away obviously, what is in doubt however, is exactly when do the supernaturals make their move on the south. This could be next week, or it could still be several years off. What I want to know is how they plan on getting over or through the Wall. Clearly the dead have some advantages, like being able to hop off cliffs and get back up again, vaporizing weapons etc. But they don’t have any siege weapons and while the Walkers do seem to have some level of intelligence / planning / brain activity, the rest of the minions are completely mindless. We haven’t seen anything to indicate they’d be capable of pulling off advanced war tactics beyond running at the enemy really fast en masse and being scary. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/113 "2015-06-08T15:07:52Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > And his chances of sitting the Iron Throne besides, “finding an unmarried woman that’s willing to risk everything on a long shot for the throne” - are you kidding? This isn’t a modern world where people have their own lives and the luxury to make choices like that. The king could marry pretty much whoever he damn well pleases at the drop of a pin, and he’d find droves of young fertile girls more than willing (and more importantly, their families more than willing since most marriages in the Seven Kingdoms are, of course, arranged). Non-issue. Depends on whether or not he would want to marry before he sits on the throne. If he’s still fighting a war, then no, he absolutely does not have the choice of anyone. He has to convince someone to join a war on his side. The side which is much weaker than those he’s fighting. So if he wants an heir that his bannermen can rally around in the event of his death, then he has his work cut out for him. If he waits until he becomes king, then yeah, he gets his choice. ---
**Author:** ![G0sp3l](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c68b51/32.png) [@G0sp3l](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G0sp3l)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/114 "2015-06-08T15:10:41Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I doubt it. If you watched the extras after the credits, the show runners said this plot point came from **[SIZE=“5”]JRRM[/SIZE]** himself, and they were a little taken aback. Tell **JRRM** to get back to ghostwriting _Wild Cards_ and let **GRRM** handle _Game of Thrones_😛 I knew Shireen was toast the moment Stannis made a point of saying how he defied everyone’s wisdom to let her live. I had **hoped** we were being set up for a swerve where he actually show a true bit of humanity. He is exactly what I thought he was, a zealot and a fool. I recall not all of his followers are ardent supporters of The Lord of Light. I wouldn’t be surprised if he hasn’t initiated his own assassination conspiracy. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/115 "2015-06-08T15:16:50Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > What I want to know is how they plan on getting over or through the Wall. Have we seen anything in show that indicates humans or the watch would be able to construct a magical self maintaining ice wall hundreds of feet high? However we have seen another comparable structure, an entire city made of ice where the baby was taken to be turned into a walker. I’m certain the walkers built the wall, and if need be will just use magic to bring it down or make a way through. Heck it seems plausible they now have exactly what they wanted, all humans and giants out of their yard and behind their fence. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/116 "2015-06-08T15:23:03Z")
I got the impression that Drogon was defending Dany, not necessarily doing a scorched earth attack move. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/117 "2015-06-08T15:23:47Z")
Well I know we’re not supposed to bring in the books but surely at some point in the show they also mentioned the Wall’s history, no? It was built by Bran the Builder with the help of the giants and took centuries to build it up to its present size. Magic was used as well but I don’t think there’s any reason to believe it was the Walkers’ magic. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/118 "2015-06-08T15:25:56Z")
> [@G0sp3l](#): > > Tell **JRRM** to get back to ghostwriting _Wild Cards_ and let **GRRM** handle _Game of Thrones_😛 :smack: ---
**Author:** ![G0sp3l](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c68b51/32.png) [@G0sp3l](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G0sp3l)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/119 "2015-06-08T15:26:18Z")
> [@grude](#): > > Have we seen anything in show that indicates humans or the watch would be able to construct a magical self maintaining ice wall hundreds of feet high? However we have seen another comparable structure, an entire city made of ice where the baby was taken to be turned into a walker. > > I’m certain the walkers built the wall, and if need be will just use magic to bring it down or make a way through. Heck it seems plausible they now have exactly what they wanted, all humans and giants out of their yard and behind their fence. I don’t have any evidence other than a possible throwaway line “you don’t build a 700 hundred foot high wall to keep other humans out. Which is what the wildings are.” I may have butchered the line but I think the Westerosi think their forbears built the wall. How it’s maintained or repaired, no idea. They do haul rock up to the top sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/120 "2015-06-08T15:27:50Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > Well I know we’re not supposed to bring in the books… So why did you just do it? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922.md?page=7)