# Game of Thrones 5.09 "The Dance of Dragons" 6/7/15 \[Show Discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 7, 2015, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922 "2015-06-07T21:44:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/121 "2015-06-08T15:28:01Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > Well I know we’re not supposed to bring in the books but surely at some point in the show they also mentioned the Wall’s history, no? It was built by Bran the Builder with the help of the giants and took centuries to build it up to its present size. Magic was used as well but I don’t think there’s any reason to believe it was the Walkers’ magic. They did on the first season DVD extras I think, they have a ton of extras on them. But it is supposed to be eight thousand years in the past, so just like the records Sam finds which don’t match up with reality a season or two ago I think this is myth. EDIT:Are DVD bonus features on lore allowed? Also on a show extra for last episode they mentioned the armor the walkers were wearing guards against obsidian! So Stannis and his dragonglass mines might not be so effective. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/122 "2015-06-08T15:30:02Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > So why did you just do it? My knowledge from the books and from the show is intertwined, and I can’t honestly remember what was or wasn’t mentioned where in this detail but I’m sure Bran the Builder must have been mentioned at least once in the show. I’d have to look back to the earlier episodes where the Night’s Watch and the Wall were first introduced to be sure. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/123 "2015-06-08T15:31:21Z")
> [@G0sp3l](#): > > I don’t have any evidence other than a possible throwaway line “you don’t build a 700 hundred foot high wall to keep other humans out. Which is what the wildings are.” > > I may have butchered the line but I think the Westerosi think their forbears built the wall. How it’s maintained or repaired, no idea. They do haul rock up to the top sometimes. There were some lines I think when Jon was with the wildlings about the wall melting constantly but it never gets smaller and several times the wall has been called magic. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/124 "2015-06-08T15:32:28Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > What I want to know is how they plan on getting over or through the Wall. Clearly the dead have some advantages, like being able to hop off cliffs and get back up again, vaporizing weapons etc. But they don’t have any siege weapons and while the Walkers do seem to have some level of intelligence / planning / brain activity, the rest of the minions are completely mindless. We haven’t seen anything to indicate they’d be capable of pulling off advanced war tactics beyond running at the enemy really fast en masse and being scary. They already have Hard Home, humanity has been flanked. Declan ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/125 "2015-06-08T15:41:50Z")
> [@Declan](#): > > They already have Hard Home, humanity has been flanked. > Declan Wait I thought Hardhome was behind the wall? ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/126 "2015-06-08T15:43:55Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > I think the biggest irony is that going back to Castle Black and wintering there would have been the best possible course to take. Specially if he still held Dragonstone and its dragon glass deposits. Stannis has a mercenary army, they are not going to stick around for however many years winter lasts. His only two options are to keep going or to go back to Dragon Stone and wait for the Lannisters to come after him. He believes he is the rightful king and also that the Lord of Light wants him to be king. Thus it is his duty to become king. He has given up his humanity to try to be king, last night was the culmination of that for him. Don’t hate the player, hate the game. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/127 "2015-06-08T15:52:52Z")
> [@Declan](#): > > They already have Hard Home, humanity has been flanked. > Declan > [@grude](#): > > Wait I thought Hardhome was behind the wall? Yeah - that’s north of the Wall. They still need to get past the Wall somehow, which is what my original musing was all about. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/128 "2015-06-08T16:00:09Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Stannis has a mercenary army, they are not going to stick around for however many years winter lasts. His only two options are to keep going or to go back to Dragon Stone and wait for the Lannisters to come after him. > He believes he is the rightful king and also that the Lord of Light wants him to be king. Thus it is his duty to become king. He has given up his humanity to try to be king, last night was the culmination of that for him. Don’t hate the player, hate the game. If they are at the wall they basically would have no choice. What are they going to do in the middle of winter? ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/129 "2015-06-08T16:09:21Z")
I’m done with this show and Shireen’s death was the final straw. There’s enough brutality in the real world that I don’t need to be hammered with it every single week in my entertainment. The Shireen story arc has exposed GRRM as nothing more than Nicholas Sparks’ evil twin brother. (Yes, I said “evil” brother; you didn’t think that was possible, did you?) Shireen was a paint-by-the-numbers affair that could have been stolen from a Sparks coloring book: introduce a young, innocent girl. Make her sweet, smart, and likable. Give her a terminal disability to show off her courage and give her even more empathy. She’s so sweet that she starts to crack the shell of her emotionally distant father. In a Sparks book she ends up with the equally-cute boy. In Evil Twin Martin’s book, she ends up with a gruesome death, just like every other noble character in the series. I hate gratuitous plot manipulations and this is the worst; a cheap and tawdry trick to play with one’s emotions. ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/130 "2015-06-08T16:13:04Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > Yeah - that’s north of the Wall. They still need to get past the Wall somehow, which is what my original musing was all about. It REALLY doesn’t seem that hard to get past the wall if you have the forces. The Wildlings got really close. They had a GIANT in the tunnel who nearly got through. (I assume they are sealing the tunnel now that Jon and the Wildings are through.) The dead would have no trouble climbing the wall en mass…they arent going to get tired and they have no fear of falling. They could also Pirates of the Caribbean it and just walk the sea floor and attack from south of the wall. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/131 "2015-06-08T16:17:09Z")
> [@Push\_You\_Down](#): > > It REALLY doesn’t seem that hard to get past the wall if you have the forces. The Wildlings got really close. They had a GIANT in the tunnel who nearly got through. (I assume they are sealing the tunnel now that Jon and the Wildings are through.) > > The dead would have no trouble climbing the wall en mass…they arent going to get tired and they have no fear of falling. They could also Pirates of the Caribbean it and just walk the sea floor and attack from south of the wall. Yeah, to get past the Wall all you have to do is gather the largest army in the history of the world and attack the Night’s Watch when they’re at the lowest staffing in its 8,000 year history. 2,000 to 1 advantage and they lost on the night. Easy. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/132 "2015-06-08T16:25:29Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > This Lord of Light guy is a real asshole. > > I hope Davos is the one who eventually kills Melisandre and Stannis. > > Also, I am now completely uninterested in Dany’s part in this story. Everything that happens around her is just silly. [Tyrion puts it best.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upqpS9TTc2c) > [@EllisDee](#): > > EDIT: On a related note, did anyone else find themselves thinking “If a handful of dudes with spears can essentially defeat Dany’s biggest dragon, maybe her dragons won’t be much use at all?” I thought Drogon was in deep shit. On the DVDs (so I dunno if it counts as a show spoiler) the Histories and Lore [talks about the Storming of the Dragonpit](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBLjoejIQ-o), where an angry mob managed to kill five dragons. So sheer numbers can overwhelm them. > [@BlackKnight](#): > > Time to cancel my membership in the Team Stannis Fan Club. > > (Should I mail back my membership card, or just burn it?) [He was the chosen one!](https://levynewsnetwork.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/you-were-the-chosen-one-obi-wan-kenobi.gif?w=500) I’m also burning my Stannis the Mannis banners. At least Dany has grown men burnt to death and not little girls. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/133 "2015-06-08T16:32:11Z")
Didn’t read any of the comment yet, but…this episode was something. The best I’ve seen, but probably in a good part because, as a book reader, I had no clue what to expect for the first time. I got a lot of strong emotional reactions. Still… I can’t believe what I’ve seen in Stannis’ camp. Also, please, Prince of Dorne as king of the Andals and the first men. And of Essos too, while we’re at it (which meand he’s probably doomed before long). Woh! ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/134 "2015-06-08T16:50:33Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Yeah, to get past the Wall all you have to do is gather the largest army in the history of the world and attack the Night’s Watch when they’re at the lowest staffing in its 8,000 year history. 2,000 to 1 advantage and they lost on the night. Easy. :dubious: They didn’t lose in one night. They pulled back. Even Jon said the the watch couldn’t survive another attack. The wildlings LOST when Mance deciced not to risk everyone by fighting the large mounted army that Stannis brought. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/135 "2015-06-08T17:01:26Z")
Those who think Drogon was a wimpy dragon - remember, he had to land because his mother was in the middle of the crowd. That made him vulnerable, but there was no choice. If that had been a battle with the enemy without the queen in the midst, he could have simply dive-bombed the fighting pits and sprayed fire. Repeat until everyone is dead. Those huge spears wouldn’t reach him, and I’m guessing arrows wouldn’t do much against his dragonscale hide. What do you think would happen to Stannis’ army if Drogon decided to obliterate them? What could they do to stop him? Note that even with a bunch of large spears buried in his flesh he could still fly away. As for Stannis, i actually thought his casual order to have all the guards hanged was in some ways worse than burning his child. The way the situation unfolded left him with little choice. At this point, the show has established that the Lord of Light is real, and Stannis knows it. And the sacrifice of his own daughter was presented as the only possible option to save the world. Remember, Stannis isn’t just fighting to be king. He’s fighting because he’s been told explicitly that he must become king for the world to be saved. The only way they win against the walkers is to unite the seven kingdoms, and at the current time those kingdoms are fighting each other and being run by evil men and women worried more about their own power than some mystical threat from the north. If Stannis’ army dies frozen in the north, the walkers reach the wall unopposed and will almost certainly go through. At that point, everyone they kill becomes another member of their army. That’s as close to an unstoppable force as you can imagine. It’s easy to say, “i wouldn’t do that!” But what option did he have? Save his daughter, only to watch her become one of the army of the dead or freeze to death in a month or two anyway? Stannis’ strength is that he’s capable of doing the hard thing when faced with no other options. This was the ultimate example of that: The choice was devastating to him personally, but he didn’t let that stop him from doing what had to be done. The casual order to hang all the guards before even knowing if they were shirking their duty was less in character than was burning his child. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/136 "2015-06-08T17:06:15Z")
A few general comments: -Why were the sons of harpies stabbing a bunch of people who were dressed like Mereenese masters, who were presumably “on their side”? Maybe those were people who had collaborated with Dany, had shown support for the idea of the new slaveless Mereen? That said, I agree that the economics and politics of the situation haven’t been very clearly explained. -Are Tyrion and his pals just totally screwed now? Unclear. Maybe the odds were 50-to-10 at one point, but Drogon burned a lot of those 50 and presumably scared a bunch away. And presumably there are also Unsullied reinforcements who will show up. That said, my guess is that we we’ve seen the last of everyone from Mereen (including Dany) until next season, given how many other storylines there are to wrap up in the finale -Was it out of character for Stannis to burn his daughter? Didn’t he say just a few episodes ago that he would never harm her? Not at all. It’s like a story in which a guy is in trouble but he swears he’s never going to sell his prized possession. And then he gets into worse trouble, and he eventually does. Doesn’t mean he was a liar or a hypocrite, it’s just showing how serious trouble he was. In GoT, when they say “we don’t have any food and we’re all going to starve to death”, then by gum they don’t have any food and they’re all going to starve to death. They’re not going to reverse the polarity of the neutron flow and figure out a miraculous way to get out of it. Or rather, they did figure out a miraculous way to get out of it, and that miracle came with a price, and Stannis was willing to pay the price -But now Stannis is a Kinslayer, and Kinslayers are the worst thing there is. How will anyone ever respect him? (a) have we actually heard much discussion of kinslaying and how awful it is or isn’t? I don’t honestly remember such. (b) Suppose things work out the way Stannis wants and fires descend from the heaven and burn open the gates of Winterfell and they conquer the Boltons. Well, everyone in his army knew that they were about to starve to death, and then Stannis sacrificed his own daughter, and they were saved. That’s the kind of thing that generates loyalty, both to a king and to a religion. “He was in trouble and he cried out to his God, and his God told him to sacrifice his only daughter, who he loved despite her being cursed with a terrible affliction, and eventually he did, and God rewarded him” is classic hero-from-the-Bible action. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/137 "2015-06-08T17:10:12Z")
> [@Push\_You\_Down](#): > > :dubious: > They didn’t lose in one night. They pulled back. Even Jon said the the watch couldn’t survive another attack. > The wildlings LOST when Mance deciced not to risk everyone by fighting the large mounted army that Stannis brought. Lost on the night. Yes they did. If your standard for easy is “the largest army ever can defeat people when the defenders are outnumbered 2,000 to 1… eventually” then yeah, it’s easy to get past the Wall. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/138 "2015-06-08T17:10:46Z")
> [@BlackKnight](#): > > Time to cancel my membership in the Team Stannis Fan Club. > > (Should I mail back my membership card, or just burn it?) What were his choices? Let 20000 men - _and_ his daughter die in the snow, or be left to the tender mercies of the Boltons? ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/139 "2015-06-08T17:14:06Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > A few general comments: > > -Why were the sons of harpies stabbing a bunch of people who were dressed like Mereenese masters, who were presumably “on their side”? Maybe those were people who had collaborated with Dany, had shown support for the idea of the new slaveless Mereen? That said, I agree that the economics and politics of the situation haven’t been very clearly explained. Well, if they were on their side they would be harpies i guess. That was a whole lot of them there, probably all. That would mean anyone else was an enemy. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922/140 "2015-06-08T17:18:13Z")
> [@tonyfop](#): > > This. They don’t have enough men or food to besiege Winterfell. They don’t have enough food to get back to Castle Black. If they push forward, they are dead. If they sit around, they are dead. If they retreat they are dead. If they sacrifice the little girl, they have a slight chance to live. Stannis made the only choice he could make, no matter how much he hates it. What you saw in the scene was him putting on a strong outward show for his men. If he becomes a sobbing wreck, no one will follow him. Right, it was the best choice. And note he only made it after his daughter said she’d give anything to help him. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-09-the-dance-of-dragons-6-7-15-show-discussion/721922.md?page=8)