# Game of Thrones 5.10 "Mother's Mercy" 6/14/15 \[Show Discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 14, 2015, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-10-mothers-mercy-6-14-15-show-discussion/722526 "2015-06-14T19:32:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2015, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-10-mothers-mercy-6-14-15-show-discussion/722526/361 "2015-06-17T22:57:13Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > And how comes that, _again_, the person who started the exchange (first time with a comment on the books, this time with a dismissivive “just don’t do it, easy peasy”) is left alone while my _answer_ attracts your ire? > Am I going to shut up when people call me a jerk or junior moderate me? Nope, not until you make me shut up forcefully, or until you make them shut up too. This is now a warning. Don’t post in this thread again on this issue unless you want more warnings. You are free to dispute this warning in ATMB, however. There is nobody trying or wanting to “shut [anyone] up forcefully”, we’re merely asking to take the discussion out of this thread so it doesn’t hijack it any more. As for anyone else who has tried to “jr mod you”, they have already been given notes and/or their posts moved to the book thread, just like yours were. Now, for the last time, please take it to ATMB. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2015, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-10-mothers-mercy-6-14-15-show-discussion/722526/362 "2015-06-17T23:41:05Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > My interpretation was that Miranda referencing abusing her reproductive system after she bore children was the catalyst for Theon since he lost his. No idea if that is what they were going for but they did make a point if talking about Sansa’s reproductive equipment. I think we can all agree it’s best not to try and imagine what might be planning for Sansa’s female parts once he’s done using her as a brood mare. :eek: It’s bad enough her comments made think stuff like “Sansa doesn’t need hands or feet or eyes just to give birth”; though one assumes Roose told his son he needs to keep Sansa presentable for the odd public appearance for the time being. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2015, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-10-mothers-mercy-6-14-15-show-discussion/722526/363 "2015-06-18T00:03:11Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > I think we can all agree it’s best not to try and imagine what might be planning for Sansa’s female parts once he’s done using her as a brood mare. :eek: It’s bad enough her comments made think stuff like “Sansa doesn’t need hands or feet or eyes just to give birth”; though one assumes Roose told his son he needs to keep Sansa presentable for the odd public appearance for the time being. Have we seen anything to indicate Roose lives up to his family banner? Well ok he told us the charming story of how he raped Ramsey’s mom under her dead husband swinging from a tree. So why exactly is Ramsey such a psychotic maniac? ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2015, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-10-mothers-mercy-6-14-15-show-discussion/722526/364 "2015-06-18T00:20:46Z")
> [@grude](#): > > Have we seen anything to indicate Roose lives up to his family banner? Well ok he told us the charming story of how he raped Ramsey’s mom under her dead husband swinging from a tree. > > So why exactly is Ramsey such a psychotic maniac? Why is anyone? Usually serial killers and the like have relatively normal parents. Roose is not a very nice or well-liked guy at all, but even he often seems to be disgusted by Ramsay’s wanton cruelty/sadism and acts generally contemptuously toward him. Kinda like Tywin was with Joffrey\*. House Bolton of course has the flayed man on their banners as that’s historically been their thing, but I don’t think we’ve seen anything to indicate Roose himself is an avid flayer. Certainly not like Ramsay. \*I still think Tywin had something to do with the plot to kill Joffrey. Not necessarily just because he was a rotten apple, but because Tywin knew that his rottenness was likely to end up being counterproductive to his life’s work of securing wealth and power for the Lannisters. Lady Olenna and Littlefinger (and to a lesser extent Ser Dontos) alone just don’t seem like they would have had the motive to orchestrate it without someone else pushing them along. Sure, Olenna wanted to save her granddaughter (?) from marrying a monster but she wouldn’t have been proactive enough to commit regicide on her own. Littlefinger, I never even figured out what he got out of it other than he just likes playing power games. And there’s a fairly lengthy scene between Olenna and Tywin acting kind of buddy-buddy at the royal wedding just before Joffrey is killed. And I also seem to recall Tywin saying something to the effect of how Tommen would be more malleable than Joff. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2015, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-10-mothers-mercy-6-14-15-show-discussion/722526/365 "2015-06-18T01:49:57Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > Why is anyone? Usually serial killers and the like have relatively normal parents. Roose is not a very nice or well-liked guy at all, but even he often seems to be disgusted by Ramsay’s wanton cruelty/sadism and acts generally contemptuously toward him. Kinda like Tywin was with Joffrey\*. House Bolton of course has the flayed man on their banners as that’s historically been their thing, but I don’t think we’ve seen anything to indicate Roose himself is an avid flayer. Certainly not like Ramsay. > > \*I still think Tywin had something to do with the plot to kill Joffrey. Not necessarily just because he was a rotten apple, but because Tywin knew that his rottenness was likely to end up being counterproductive to his life’s work of securing wealth and power for the Lannisters. Lady Olenna and Littlefinger (and to a lesser extent Ser Dontos) alone just don’t seem like they would have had the motive to orchestrate it without someone else pushing them along. Sure, Olenna wanted to save her granddaughter (?) from marrying a monster but she wouldn’t have been proactive enough to commit regicide on her own. Littlefinger, I never even figured out what he got out of it other than he just likes playing power games. And there’s a fairly lengthy scene between Olenna and Tywin acting kind of buddy-buddy at the royal wedding just before Joffrey is killed. And I also seem to recall Tywin saying something to the effect of how Tommen would be more malleable than Joff. Yes when Ramsey presented Roose with Theon, Roose was angry and livid(well as much as he gets anyway) saying he had turned a valuable hostage into a mutilated creature. I guess I was just curious how Ramsey takes after the family more than his father. There are just so many psychotics on this show it sometimes seems excessive, like when 16 year old Joffrey was presented with two nude hookers courtesy of Tyrion and instead of sex he starts having them torture each other. Then he killed Roz, Joffrey didn’t even seem to get off on this sexually he just likes torture. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2015, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-10-mothers-mercy-6-14-15-show-discussion/722526/366 "2015-06-18T01:59:43Z")
Fortunately it’s “liked,” past tense. WE HATE JOFFREY! ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2015, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-10-mothers-mercy-6-14-15-show-discussion/722526/367 "2015-06-18T02:18:13Z")
> [@grude](#): > > There are just so many psychotics on this show it sometimes seems excessive I mean if you consider two out of dozens of major\* characters to be excessive. Only Joffrey and Ramsay have been shown to be cruel and/or sadistic just for the sake of it. Others have committed cruel acts, but for reasons they believed were important / right / necessary a la the Shireenocaust. It’s not like Stannis did that just to watch her burn, whereas I could totally see Joffrey or Ramsay doing it for that reason. - Meryn Trant also recently showed an affinity for sexual sadism but he was a pretty minor character all told, with barely any screen time up until the end. ETA: OK, Vargo Hoat as well but he was also a minor character. ---
**Author:** ![toombs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9f8e36/32.png) [@toombs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toombs)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2015, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-10-mothers-mercy-6-14-15-show-discussion/722526/368 "2015-06-18T02:27:42Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > Why is anyone? Usually serial killers and the like have relatively normal parents. Roose is not a very nice or well-liked guy at all, but even he often seems to be disgusted by Ramsay’s wanton cruelty/sadism and acts generally contemptuously toward him. Kinda like Tywin was with Joffrey\*. House Bolton of course has the flayed man on their banners as that’s historically been their thing, but I don’t think we’ve seen anything to indicate Roose himself is an avid flayer. Certainly not like Ramsay. Were you not listening during the whole speech Roose made about Ramsey’s mother? Here, watch it again: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u\_J40KHcIko](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_J40KHcIko) Roose is a lot worse than “not very nice”. (For the record, serial killers usually have messed up parents. Or, if not parents, someone in their formative years that is abusive or neglectful.) ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2015, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-10-mothers-mercy-6-14-15-show-discussion/722526/369 "2015-06-18T02:40:24Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > We have been reminded to take this kind of discussion to ATMB. I know you mean well, but this does come off a little bit as Jr Modding, so just report the posts next time. please. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2015, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-10-mothers-mercy-6-14-15-show-discussion/722526/370 "2015-06-18T02:45:44Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > I mean if you consider two out of dozens of major\* characters to be excessive. Only Joffrey and Ramsay have been shown to be cruel and/or sadistic just for the sake of it. Others have committed cruel acts, but for reasons they believed were important / right / necessary a la the Shireenocaust. It’s not like Stannis did that just to watch her burn, whereas I could totally see Joffrey or Ramsay doing it for that reason. > > - Meryn Trant also recently showed an affinity for sexual sadism but he was a pretty minor character all told, with barely any screen time up until the end. > > ETA: OK, Vargo Hoat as well but he was also a minor character. What do you think about Littlefinger/Baelish? Even a sociopath can rationalize their actions as important/right/ necessary, no? ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2015, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-10-mothers-mercy-6-14-15-show-discussion/722526/371 "2015-06-18T02:48:07Z")
> [@toombs](#): > > Were you not listening during the whole speech Roose made about Ramsey’s mother? > > Here, watch it again: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u\_J40KHcIko](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_J40KHcIko) > > Roose is a lot worse than “not very nice”. What about it? He had a guy hanged and took his wife by force - that was already established by the poster I was replying to. That doesn’t indicate that he’s interested in torturing/dismembering/flaying people for the fun of it. People live by a different set of rules in Westeros, and most wouldn’t bat an eye at that since as a noble vassal those people were his subjects and it’s pretty much his right to do with them as he will (according to the law of the land). > [@toombs](#): > > (For the record, serial killers usually have messed up parents. Or, if not parents, someone in their formative years that is abusive or neglectful.) Do you have a cite for that? Just about everything I’ve seen/read about such people is not consistent with that even if much of it is anecdotal recollections of family, acquaintances etc. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2015, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-10-mothers-mercy-6-14-15-show-discussion/722526/372 "2015-06-18T02:50:32Z")
> [@camille](#): > > What do you think about Littlefinger/Baelish? Even a sociopath can rationalize their actions as important/right/ necessary, no? Littlefinger’s not cruel. He has one of the best self-preservation instincts of anyone on the show. Yeah, he’ll throw you under the bus if that’s what it takes to protect the interests of Littlefinger. But there’s a big difference between that and simply torturing people for pleasure, which is definitely not his style. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2015, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-10-mothers-mercy-6-14-15-show-discussion/722526/373 "2015-06-18T03:04:48Z")
Besides Joffrey and Ramsay and Locke and his men, Clegane and Qyburn have shown sadistic tendencies. And also the two thugs that were caged with Jaqen on the trip north. Baelish implied that he had multiple customers into sadism. Several of the other characters have shown extreme callousness with respect to the suffering of others—Viserys, the Dothraki, the slave traders of Essos, the people who produce the unsullied. The Ironborn and the Wildlings based their entire societies on murder and theft. The Thenns are cannibals. All in all it seems like horrific abuse and violence is fairly routine in the experience of the common folk. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2015, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-10-mothers-mercy-6-14-15-show-discussion/722526/374 "2015-06-18T03:11:22Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > Littlefinger’s not cruel. He has one of the best self-preservation instincts of anyone on the show. Yeah, he’ll throw you under the bus if that’s what it takes to protect the interests of Littlefinger. But there’s a big difference between that and simply torturing people for pleasure, which is definitely not his style. He may not get off on torture, but I disagree that he’s not cruel. He convinced Lysa to poison Arryn, then pushed her down the moon door. He betrayed Ned knowing he would be killed (and hurt his supposed love Catelyn), he helped foment a war because he likes chaos, he gave Roz to Joffrey, he pushed Sansa to Ramsey… When you do things like that, it goes beyond self preservation. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2015, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-10-mothers-mercy-6-14-15-show-discussion/722526/375 "2015-06-18T03:40:28Z")
> [@camille](#): > > He may not get off on torture, but I disagree that he’s not cruel. > > He convinced Lysa to poison Arryn, then pushed her down the moon door. He betrayed Ned knowing he would be killed (and hurt his supposed love Catelyn), he helped foment a war because he likes chaos, he gave Roz to Joffrey, he pushed Sansa to Ramsey… > > When you do things like that, it goes beyond self preservation. You could almost argue that him pushing Lysa Arryn out the Moon Door was noble (OK, OK, “noble” might be a stretch), because she was threatening to do the same to Sansa, and he saved her life in that case. Ned was 100% self-preservation, plus his love for Catelyn made him a rival, so that’s an odd way of looking at it. Currying favor with Joffrey, also self-interest (and I don’t think he knew Joff was actually going to _kill_ her). Marrying Sansa to Ramsay, self-interest (we don’t know if he knew just how bad Ramsay is, but he did imply when he talked to him not to harm Sansa). I’m still not sure I fully understand why he involved himself in Joff’s murder plot, though on the surface that’s another “good deed” since I’m sure we can all agree the realm is better off without Joffrey. Though I’m sure he had his own self-interested motivations for that as well. I would never argue that he isn’t 100% out for himself but I just don’t see him as evil as some people seem to think he is. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2015, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-10-mothers-mercy-6-14-15-show-discussion/722526/376 "2015-06-18T03:46:03Z")
I agree with most of your points about LF, **Rigamarole** , but he also killed the clownish ex-knight who delivered Sansa to him by small boat from King’s Landing right after Joffrey’s death. Although motivated arguably by self-preservation again (dead men tell no tales) it seemed gratuitous. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2015, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-10-mothers-mercy-6-14-15-show-discussion/722526/377 "2015-06-18T03:46:16Z")
Joffrey’s handlers and family were remarkably dumb not to reign him in by any means needed, because Joffs own father used the pretext of psychotic cruelty to depose by force the “Mad King” Aeriss who was Dany’s father! If anyone knew the risks of having a psycho on the throne you’d think they would! Jaime killed his cousin who was jailed with him for…not sure of the reason. Also Dany’s brother was a real asshole, but I think the Dothraki could have beaten some respect into him easily rather than killing him. If nothing else for Dany’s emotional health. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2015, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-10-mothers-mercy-6-14-15-show-discussion/722526/378 "2015-06-18T03:49:45Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > I agree with most of your points about LF, **Rigamarole** , but he also killed the clownish ex-knight who delivered Sansa to him by small boat from King’s Landing right after Joffrey’s death. Although motivated arguably by self-preservation again (dead men tell no tales) it seemed gratuitous. I actually thought about that too, and that’s more self-preservation than anything else. If you were involved in a plot to _kill the king_ that would be 100% likely to mean your head if you were found out, would you want to leave a drunken fool (literally, Ser Dontos was a known drunk - that’s how he was demoted from Knight to Fool in the first place), who knew all the details of the conspiracy, alive? Dontos’ mini-story was tragic but he absolutely had to go. ---
**Author:** ![russian\_heel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f05b48/32.png) [@russian\_heel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/russian_heel)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2015, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-10-mothers-mercy-6-14-15-show-discussion/722526/379 "2015-06-18T06:33:42Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > CGIed face on a body double folks. For SOME of the scene. ---
**Author:** ![russian\_heel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f05b48/32.png) [@russian\_heel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/russian_heel)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2015, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-10-mothers-mercy-6-14-15-show-discussion/722526/380 "2015-06-18T06:38:14Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > Did anyone else think that Dany had flown all the way to Westeros before the Dothraki showed up? Based on the location, I was half expecting her to find the Hound’s dead body. I thought the exact same thing, and was a bit disappointed it wasn’t the case. If she landed in Westoros, it would have been an absolutely mind-blowing twist. Now we get ANOTHER season her, and Mormont and the other dude wandering all over Esteros with more boring dialogue until the creepy bearded guy finishes his book. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-10-mothers-mercy-6-14-15-show-discussion/722526.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-5-10-mothers-mercy-6-14-15-show-discussion/722526.md?page=20)